He’s the son of a preacher man

Ian Paisley Jnr. – sometimes nicknamed “Baby Doc” or “Ian Óg” – is adamant that he is not a political clone of his controversial father. But while Ian Jnr. likes to insist that he is his own man, there is no denying that his political ideology and religious views have been shaped by his father.

In 1971, the founder of the Free Presbyterian Church Ian Paisley Snr. established the Democratic Unionist Party. The party was originally set up to oppose constitutional arrangements for a new assembly and power-sharing between Protestants and Catholics. Ironically, the DUP is now the largest party in the recently elected Assembly, Paisley Snr. is now its First Minister – and he is sharing power with his erstwhile mortal enemies Sinn Féin.
In the late 1970s, Rev. Ian Paisley launched a campaign entitled “Save Ulster From Sodomy” and it appears to be a crusade that his son would be quite happy to champion today.
In 2005, having discovered that David Trimble’s political advisor, Steven King, had married his boyfriend in Canada, Paisley Jnr. was reported as saying: “It is really astounding that David Trimble should have had a man such as this giving him advice... I think these sorts of relationships are immoral, offensive and obnoxious”. In response, the Northern Ireland gay men’s advocacy organisation, ‘The Rainbow Project’, called for Paisley Jnr. to be sacked from his position on the Policing Board.
Born in 1966, Paisley Jnr. studied history and Irish politics at Queen’s University. He was elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly, for the constituency of North Antrim, in 1996. He is his party’s justice spokesperson, as well as a Junior Minister in the Office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister.
Paisley Jnr., who is married with four children, was awarded the Royal Humane Society award for bravery in 1999, after helping to rescue a drowning child.

Jason O'Toole: Was it difficult growing up with the Rev. Ian Paisley as your father?
Ian Paisley Jnr: I never really had anything to compare it to. The year I was born my father had just come out of jail. When I was four he was back in jail. He was always controversial. It wasn’t as if, for instance, I was able to live through my teenage years and then suddenly my father became famous. So, I just accepted that was normal life and that everybody’s father was like that!
Were you a bit of a rebel growing up?
My father once told me, ‘Son never go into politics.’ So I like to say, because I’ve gone into politics, I am a rebel in that regard! Both of my parents would have been happier if I had gone into the Church, but I had no call. I was also always interested in politics and political journalism. I have a little motto, ‘If you don’t like it, don’t do it.’ Life’s too short. And I like what I do.
I presume your political ideology was heavily influenced by your father?
My ideology, I think, was shaped by my experience – I was brought up in a very loving household with another brother and three sisters and a very loving mother and father who always had time for us, despite the fact that they were incredibly busy. Unfortunately, my father went to jail for a short spell in the middle of all that. Obviously, all of that shaped what I believe, but I don’t believe I am a clone. I have my own views and my own identity – and I come to my Unionism because that is where I want to be. I am very proud of that.
Do you look up to your father?
I always say that I measure other people’s heroes by my father! I think my father’s very much a man’s man, a tough guy. Very much like a person would say, ‘I want to be like Ian Paisley – be a tough guy.’ The more people I get to meet – and that I am privileged to meet in public life – the more I find that other people’s heroes have feet of clay, but my hero doesn’t (laughs). The man is 82 next year, and he does the job that he does – I think it is just remarkable. In any other society, this would be sung but, you know, it is just Ian Paisley. I think he is a fabulous guy.
Martin McGuinness says that his Deputy Minister position is as important as that of the First Minister. Is he right?
We don’t want to tell him ‘no’ – we don’t want to upset the guy (laughs). I actually think it is working quite well. I think everyone does know (that) a deputy in anyone’s language is a deputy. I mean, it is not an issue – I think most people recognise unionism is in a majority here – a lot of the Republicans had to recognise that. They’re the ones, I think, that had to perform the biggest u-turn. We were holding out to maintain what we had. Republicans wanted to get rid of the British from Ireland – that was their project. They did fail. I think maybe it is sometimes hard to recognise that if you are in Martin McGuinness’ shoes.
The polls show that the majority of UK citizens don’t care if Northern Ireland belongs to Britain. So what does Unionism mean to you?
Being Unionist is not about being a little Englander. I am no more English than the next guy on this island. The ‘union’ requires more than one part – it requires the Scots, the Welsh, the English and the people from Northern Ireland. I am as much British as a person living in Dover or a person living in Edinburgh. That should be recognised.
The political pundits say you are the natural successor to your father as leader of the DUP.
I know what it takes in terms of sacrifice because I have seen it first-hand. I am very pleased to be where I am today. I believe I have earned that position, but I have absolutely no ambitions to be leader of the party.
Two years ago, your sister Rhonda launched a legal action alleging gender discrimination against the DUP…
I’m a party officer, I can’t talk about it – I’m sworn to secrecy. But she was entitled to take it and that is what equality law is there for.
What’s your assessment of Tony Blair?
I believe under Blair – even though he pandered to Republicanism and he tried to use PR and spin – at the end of the day, the Union is now copper-fastened and stronger than it’s ever been. We’ve got the end of the IRA, the end of their terrorism, their arms dumped unceremoniously, the Royal Irish Regiment awarded the highest military medal by her majesty the Queen – and we’ve got a Unionist Prime Minister, Ian Paisley, who was the most hated unionist of all. I think Unionism will get stronger, given that we’re coming out of a 30-year war.
Where will Northern Ireland be in 20 years?
17 miles off the coast of Scotland! I hope it will be a very strong, thriving economy.
But what if the majority of people in the future want a united Ireland?
As a democrat, I have to say that I would have to accept what the will of the people is. I would oppose it – I would be entitled to oppose it by constitutional means and legitimate means. But I don’t believe that day is coming. In 30 years time, I believe Unionism will be in a stronger position. I also believe that Catholics are very Unionist! A lot of them have come to terms that we actually have a split community and the most harmonious way to move forward is to continue with the arrangements that there are now in place.
So you don’t believe there will ever be a united Ireland?
I don’t believe my children will be living in a united Ireland. I believe they will be living in a British Ulster.
Some Unionists believe that Sinn Fein still have questions to answer about issues like the Northern Bank raid and the Columbia three?
Oh, yeah. I think one of the biggest challenges that is going to happen in the next few years is with our historical enquiries team – which is a team set up to look into unresolved or unsolved murders and unsolved crimes – because, whenever they turn up (something), a prominent member of Sinn Fein is (always) involved in one of these things from the past. How is Sinn Fein going to deal with that? That is going to be a huge test for these institutions. Does Sinn Fein try to cover for that person? Or does Sinn Fein say, ‘No. He must now go forward and face due process and accept the outcome’. And I think that is going to be a huge challenge. That challenge is coming sooner rather than later.
The marching season will be starting shortly.
It is a huge issue. A huge cultural issue. It is one of those things, which if it isn’t resolved, or (there is) another big problem around it, the political consequences could be huge. So we have got to make sure that parties do work towards a quiet summer. The consequences for the tourism industry and everything else are massive.
Is it not simple to exempt certain Catholic streets from the marches?
I am hoping we get to the position where marching actually doesn’t do any harm. It lasts a few minutes – it’s a bit of craic. Enjoy it for what it is – it’s a spectacle. If we can get to that perspective, then hopefully the rioters will leave us alone.
So should you be trying to encourage Catholics to participate in marching season?
I think it would be hard to encourage Catholics to celebrate the defeat of King James at the Boyne. I mean, I’m a realist. But I do think that we can encourage people to celebrate the fact that we are different, to allow people to celebrate their… differences. I don’t try to molest or prevent Hibernian marches. They are entitled to enjoy themselves.
Are you for segregation in schools?
Believe it or not, I went to an integrated school. I believe parents should have the choice, but I believe that if you want to have the choice of a religious, exclusive school then you should pay for that choice – it should not be paid for by the State. My own children do not go to private schools so I am very much in favour of State schools. I understand that the churches have a huge input into all this, but I think the churches need to stand back and the sooner the better. We don’t need the multiple schools that we have in some districts. I think parental choice is going to drive an awful lot of this – and there is a lot of suspicion out there – but if we can make progress here politically, that suspicion will hopefully move away.
What do you think of the Irish Language Act?
There is no Irish Language Act – there is a promise to create an Irish Language Act, which I think will fail because there is really no desire to have it. I mean, most Irish republicans who speak upstairs (in parliament) have to read their Irish language. If it was so important to them I think they’d be able to speak it.
You obviously describe yourself as British, but do you feel a connection to Ireland?
Of course I do. It is a very big part of my Ulster roots. It is a very big part of my cultural identity, which makes me an exclusive person from this part of the island. I mean, I don’t do Morris Dancing – I have no empathy towards it, but I understand that some people might like to do Morris Dancing. But understand, then, that I like to play the lambeg drum or a flute on the fourth of July – it is part of my culture. I don’t try to push it down people’s throats, but at least afford me the respect of being different. Isn’t it good to be different? Now, what we have to do is tolerate those differences. But I do have a love of Irish music, I love Irish culture, I like Irish playwrights. I think people try to use culture as a weapon – culture is not a weapon, culture is something of beauty that should be enjoyed.
Would you describe yourself as a religious person?
Yes, I do. I have very strong faith. A person – no matter what their background – will want to enjoy eternal life, they’ve got to have a personal experience of Lord Jesus Christ. It is not reliant upon a religious denomination, it’s reliant upon a personal experience between you and Christ. I try to encourage that with my children and try to work by example of that.
As a religious person, what are your thoughts on pre-marital sex?
I don’t actually have any views on it. It happens. I hope my kids wouldn’t indulge in it! I hope my kids keep themselves chaste until a relationship that they have consummated by marriage. I think that is the strongest way to have a long-term and beneficial relationship. But, at the same time, I hope that I am not a prude. And I hope that my views are, you know, that they recognise what kids are up to and all this… My goodness, it wasn’t so long ago I was there myself. But, at the same time, I think that the older you get you realise that your parents, you know, they actually knew what they were talking about.
But I am sure as a teenager you were out there chasing girls yourself?
Absolutely, but I won’t incriminate myself. I’m not going down that road – no one ever does!
What are your thoughts on contraception?
I think it is acceptable. I think it is good family planning. Safe sex is very much part and parcel of the culture and should be encouraged.
Do you believe there is a heaven and hell?
I do. I believe they are two little places and that you can make a personal choice (about) which one you want to go to. And it is all about faith.
Can you describe Ian’s afterlife for me?
It is not what my heaven and hell is like, (it’s) what the Bible very clearly spells out about what heaven and hell is. Heaven is the place clearly that you want to go – it says the streets are paved with gold. It says that the person who you want to be with is there, and Jesus Christ is there. That they are all the reasons why indeed you would want to be there because it gives you eternal life. Whereas, hell is eternal damnation and punishment. And given that choice, I think there is only one choice to make.
So is hell the type of place where suicide bombers go?
No, I think hell is the place where sinners go. You know, a sinner can be a pious person, just as much as a sinner can be an evil person. Hell is a place where people go when they have not asked Jesus Christ into their heart. And I think we will be surprised by who is in heaven and equally surprised by who is in hell.
So can a sinner be redeemed? There are people sitting at the opposite side of you in the Assembly who – in these terms – have obviously ‘sinned’.
I don’t believe anyone can redeem themselves. I believe there is only one redemption and it’s Christ. It is not for me to judge whether or not they have accepted Christ. It is for them to make that choice.
How do you feel about same sex marriages being introduced to the UK last year?
I am, unsurprisingly, a straight person. I am pretty repulsed by gay (sic) and lesbianism. I think it is wrong. I think that those people harm themselves and – without care about it – harm society. That doesn’t mean to say that I hate them. That doesn’t mean to say that (pauses)…. I mean, I hate what they do. But I think that what we should do is to try and build a society which is founded on a strong group of principles. I think it is going to be almost impossible – and this is the problem that parliament has to deal with – to start down this road of legislating for people’s gender and people’s identity. I think that you probably create more problems than were originally there. I think a lot of it too is about almost trying to insult people who come from a very strong Christian background. I got a lot of that in the hate mail or whatever I received at that time (I spoke out against homosexuality).
A few years ago you attacked David Trimble’s aid, Steven King for marrying his partner.
The objection was this: the Ulster Unionist Party were leading a campaign in the House of Commons, through their leader at that time, David Trimble, against the sexual orientation legislation, which allows for gay marriage. The chief advisor to the First Minister through this period was giving advice that the Ulster Unionist Party should oppose gay marriage and should oppose it very, very strongly. And should actually go out on that right-wing card. The person who was giving the advice then became a subject of a gay marriage! That was my issue – that this was blatant hypocrisy that the person giving the advice had indulged himself in a gay marriage.
But you were heavily criticized for your comments…
I made very strong comments about it at the time and, at the time, I was also on the Police Board. A member of that board deemed that my comments were hurtful and wrong about the gay community, and I shouldn’t have said those things. They passed a motion of censorship. As it transpired, they had no power to pass that motion. It was one of those bizarre things that happen in politics. But I think that the next time we went to the polls, the people rewarded me and not them.
Should gay people abstain from sexual intercourse?
I think they should just free them(selves) from being gay. I clearly appreciate that some people have very, very strong tendencies. And it’s like saying to a person, who has other habits or desires, ‘You’ve got to stop that’. It is easy for me to say stop it. The difficulty is for the person to want to stop. And to recognise what they are doing is harmful to themselves, first and foremost, and harmful to society.
These are people in a country which previously had a very strong family value and moral fibre – and that is slowly but surely being eradicated. I’m not saying that is all the fault of people who’ve a gay and lesbian outlook, but all of that adds to the problems society goes through.
The education minister in Poland is bringing in legislation to prevent gay people from teaching in schools. Do you think there is any merit in that idea?
I would take a slightly different view. I mean, if I believe in a society that is tolerant – what a person ‘is’ shouldn’t be the badge that they actually wear. I think the difference is when they start to advocate things that could be regarded as affecting the people they actually teach in that school. As a parent, I think I would be really perplexed if children were taught by a gay activist, but if they were taught by a really good teacher – and I didn’t know what their background was, whether they were Catholic or Protestant, Christian or Muslim, male or female, or gay – that would be the issue, I suppose, whenever it is out there in your face. I think that’s were people get really perplexed by it and say, ‘Well, you know, this should be about a pupil being taught properly. It shouldn’t be about the agenda of the person teaching’. And that’s where I get angsty about it.
What would be your thoughts on same sex couples adopting?
I think that the best environment to adopt a child into is a stable environment of a mother and father. I think that if the child turns 18 and wants to go a different way, well, that’s their freedom of choice to make, but I think that society shouldn’t be creating or manufacturing circumstances where the normal thing is to have two guys – the normal thing is to be in that sort of environment – I just think that’s repulsive.
Some people who are anti-gay believe that it is a mental illness?
I just think it is wrong. I don’t believe it is mental illness. I think it would be madness to try and describe it as that. I just think it is a problem and it is up to the people to recognise themselves what they are doing is wrong.
What would be your stance on abortion?
I think what I would describe as the traditional Protestant view, funny enough, in that I think that abortion – unless it is there to save the life of the mother – it should not be on demand. That there should be a clinical reason as to why abortion is necessary, in terms of protecting and preserving a life. I think that is the only reason that abortion should be allowed. Is it going to change? I think in Northern Ireland we are probably free from having abortion on demand for the next generation, but I believe the pressure is certainly on. We need to look at the amount of children that are aborted and the demands there are for adoptions; I just think somebody has to bring this together and say, ‘Look, there is a way of addressing birth control, the need for adoption, and abortion.’
But what about in extreme cases of say, for example, rape – should abortion be allowed then?
Again, can I say this, when I looked at this there were very few people actually became pregnant as a result of rape. Rape is, more or less, a violent invasion and a brutal act, and an act of power over someone. It is not necessarily going to make anyone pregnant. Those stats are so very, very low. It could be argued that the mental well-being of the mother could be extremely jeopardised to carry the pregnancy, as a result of that, to full term. I think that would be an issue where people could say that, you know, ‘Whose life is worth preserving here?’ – whether it is the mental well-being or the physical well-being. I think this is an area that needs to be tackled.
But you couldn’t really describe a raped woman aborting a child as a sin?
Well, I haven’t described abortion as a sin. It is very difficult to say there is a hard and fast rule for all. In circumstances such as rape – you can identify other cases of abuse, or indeed where a child would be abused and then become pregnant – there’s all sorts of things, including mental well-being – but these are not easy issues. What I think is required, from politicians, is good judgement and discernment – and I think sometimes we find in politics that both those commodities are in short supply.
But should Northern Ireland legalise abortion like the rest of the UK?
Having a situation where abortion would be on demand – in other words, to make Northern Ireland’s law on abortion the same as the rest of the United Kingdom – I think it would be wrong. It would be folly. I think we should avoid that. I think it would have huge consequences for this island. When people say there are a lot of hypocrites in the Republic, who don’t want abortion on demand in the Republic, and they sat ‘we’re quite happy to send women to Britain’. Well, you know, I think that’s an issue the Irish Republic has to wrestle with. But I also think that, how many more problems would Irish society have if abortion was on demand in one part of the island and not in the other?
Do you think that a censorship board with emphasis on Christian culture should be set up?
Again, I think this goes back to having good judgement and discernment. For example, there was that very controversial play that was based on the television one – ‘Something (Jerry Springer) Opera. I can’t remember what it was called. It was full of profanity and all the rest of it. Now, am I for censorship on that? What I am for is, if people choose to go to that, well, so be it. But it shouldn’t be forced down the necks of people on national television. While a person can censor a television by switching channel, I think a national television station like the BBC shouldn’t broadcast those types of programmes – they should be showing better judgement. I think it got something like 60,000 objections. Now, if the BBC gets 12 objections they usually do an enquiry. To get so many objections to a programme like that, I think, indicates that they just got it wrong. I am not for censorship per se – no, I am for people exercising free judgement.
How do you unwind?
The best way to unwind is to get onto the motorbike. I am very much into motor sport generally, but specifically I am into two-wheel vehicles. I ride a motorbike myself and I enjoy biking. I go to a lot of the road races in Northern Ireland. I usually go over to England as well, and to the Isle of Man for the races. I like fast cars. Top Gear is probably my favourite programme on TV.
Have you ever been caught speeding?
Never as a minister!
You are involved in a cross-border sporting initiative called Rally Ireland, which will take place later this year.
I got attached with Rally Ireland, probably, because of my love for motor sport. The organiser Sean O'Connor (a grandson of Sean Lemass – J.O'T) got in touch with me and said, ‘We want to bring this to Northern Ireland and the Republic. We want to do 50 stages (of rallying) on each side of the border. Can you help us?’ I think it is going to be very good for Northern Ireland from a tourism point of view and it will be good for Northern Ireland from an economic point of view. I think it puts this place on the map for all the right reasons. It’ll cost a bit to do it – but I think it is money well spent
What would you think about the idea of one soccer team for Ireland?
No way. I’m all for the united rugby team. I think each state is entitled to have their own soccer team to play the World Cup rounds the way they currently have them. Northern Ireland is doing fantastically well – just like the DUP. They win all their big games and they have a superhero called Healy, we win all our big games and we have a superhero called Paisley! I think that the Northern Irish soccer team should be allowed to flourish and should be allowed to grow
Have you ever tried marijuana?
(Laughs) Given the huge publicity that you seem to have given to Mr. Cowen, I am going to have to be very, very cautious in what I say! I’m afraid I’m not cool. I never smoked marijuana. Neither have I inhaled it or tried to inhale it. I don’t do soft drugs! (laughs) I don’t actually drink (but) I’m always tempted (to drink) (laughs)!b