HP Interview: Ivana Bacik

Ivana Bacik has emerged as one of the most compelling and divisive figures in Irish public life over the past number of years. In particular, her outspoken stance on the abortion issue has made the Reid Professor of Law and Criminology something of a hero to left leaning cultural commentators, whilst simultaneously making her Public Enemy No.1 for both ultra-conservative pro-life campaigners and right-wing media outlets.

This summer will see Bacik attempt to utilise her public profile during the elections for the European Parliament, when she will run alongside veteran political operator, Pronsias De Rossa, in the Dublin constituency. Currently on a year-long sabbatical from her post at Trinity College, Bacik would seemed perfectly poised to take a seat in Brussels next month. Throughout our recent interview in her office at Trinity College, the politician, professor and activist proved to be a hugely engaging conversationalist, with a impressive breadth of intellectual reference and a manifest passion for cultural radicalism.

PAUL NOLAN: As someone with an obviously diverse range of influences and interests, why did you settle on law as a career?
IVANA BACIK: Well, I was interested in doing something that was political, I suppose. I became quite interested in politics in a very broad way when I was still in secondary school. My mother was – and remains – a very strong feminist, and I would go out campaigning with her at a very young age. I remember handing out condoms in Cork, where I grew up, with Mum back in the Seventies. And arguing in ’83 against the referendum then, whilst the other girls in schools would have been quite broadly supportive of it. So, I think I wanted to get involved in something that I would have a real effect on people’s lives, and wasn’t just a purely academic subject.
Why run in the European elections? There’s a perception that Brussels is simply a comfy retirement home for politicians who nearing the end of their careers, and there has been a lot of controversy recently about Eurocrats fiddling expense accounts.
Part of the reason I’m running is to try and change all that, because I think you’re right. I think it’s unjustifiable, the level of expenses and the way in which the European system works. I mean, people don’t have to produce receipts! I think that’s crazy. In just about every walk of life, you have to show a receipt if you’re claiming expenses, and it seems to me very wrong that you can claim for business class travel, when in fact you’ve been flying economy or whatever. So, that’s one serious problem with the way the European system works.
I also feel there’s a problem in an Irish context, in that we’ve tended to send politicians to Europe who are at the end of their domestic careers, so as you say, it becomes seen as a retirement home for older politicians, and people become very cynical about the process and very disconnected from what’s going on in Brussels. Personally, I’m very into the idea of a social Europe, that what we should be doing is strengthening protection for workers, protection for women, and trying to get through the issue of paternity leave, which I feel very strongly about. Until men are entitled to paternity leave, you’re not going to have equality, because children are always seen as a women’s issue, and that’s completely wrong – none of my male friends want their children to be solely their partner’s responsibility.
I have to confess that I voted no to the Nice Treaty the first time round, and yes in 2002, because I had – and I still have – reservations about the way the EU project is progressing. But I do think we need people in Europe who are going to raise the concerns that are relevant to people on a day-to-day basis.
Why did you feel compelled to join the Labour Party in the first place? Why not a more radical left-wing outfit?
Well, you have to remember that I joined in ‘86, when I was eighteen, and in the context of the time the Labour Party was a radical choice for me. I’ve always seen myself as being on the left of the party, and when I initially arrived I was in a group called Labour Left, which was a faction within the party that was actively challenging the idea of coalition with right-wing parties. I suppose the easiest way of describing it is to say it was a grouping that was allied to the Tony Benn faction in England. So for us it was a very exciting time, and we saw ourselves as being very left-wing ideologically, and personally, that’s very much how I still view myself.
I think Labour has since become a much more united party. After college, I emigrated to London, and subsequently rejoined when I returned home in the mid ’90s. I think there’s been very positive changes in the party since then; the fact that we’ve merged with Democratic Left, that we now have Pat Rabbite as leader, to me that indicates that we’ve moved to take up a much more radical position on the spectrum of Irish politics. And I suppose ten years ago I could never have imagined that I would get the popular vote within Labour for EU candidacy. So I certainly would hope that that’s all indicative of a greater degree of radicalism within the party.
With regard to the EU elections, was the idea originally that you would very much be the De Rossa’s running mate, and a source of vital transfer votes? Because there is now a very real chance that you could take his seat!
I have to say that the scenario you’ve outlined isn’t a true description of what actually happened. Pronsias has been incredibly supportive of my candidacy from the off, and in fact was all along very anxious that there should be a second candidate for Labour. The party’s position in the polls in Dublin is that we’re second after Fianna Fail on 21%, so it would have been unthinkable that we couldn’t run two candidates in Dublin, because there is a real possibility of two seats. So the idea was that we would try very seriously to get two seats for Labour, and Pronsias was the strongest advocate of the idea that we should have two people running in Dublin.
It wasn’t the case that I would be a strong vote getter for him, or vice-versa. The fact that Mary Banotti has retired means that there is a large chunk of a liberal electorate – particularly women – who like to see themselves as being instinctively on the left, but who wouldn’t perhaps vote Labour in a general election. I mean, whilst I’ve been out canvassing these past few months, I have met a large number of Banotti voters, or people who would be quite liberal on social issues, who wouldn’t normally be supportive of the left-wing parties, but won’t perhaps vote Fine Gael in this election because Gay Mitchell is running, and he’s not on the liberal side of FG.
Are you an advocate of the Blairite “Third Way”, though? In recent times you’ve become involved with the Fabian organisation, TASC, which has also enlisted the help of people like Mary Robinson and Nora Owen, and would seem to represent a move away from radicalism towards a more conventional social-democratic position.
Well, TASC was set-up as a left-wing think-tank, although I must say I’m not aware that it was formerly affiliated to the Fabian society. But it is based on that sort of model of a research body that would produce information to feed into the policies of Labour and other left-wing parties. And I think we’ve tried to take or cue from England, where there has been that process of producing social research, and then setting about formulating policies based on that. The idea is to have a more principled approach to policy making.
The problem with having Fianna Fail in power for so much of the history of the country is that we’re approaching the position of being a one-party state. At the next election, they’ll have been in power for eighteen out of the last twenty years. It’s almost like the main party of Mexico, who have the rather lovely title of the Institutional Revolutionary Party, who’ve been in power for 70 years, and they’ve been democratically elected each time! And they also have quite strong links with Fianna Fail.
The thing about Fianna Fail is that as a populist party, they’ll adopt policies on a whim – like this nonsense referendum we’ve got coming up – that don’t have any grounding in a rational sense of principles, and it becomes quite difficult to know what you’re voting for at each general election. And I think people have become hugely negative about politics as a result.
What do you make of Bertie’s amnesia vis-à-vis Tom Gilmartin?
(Laughs) It’s very convenient.
Would you say that generally speaking, you’re a big admirer of Mary Robinson?
Yes. She actually lectured me years ago, when she had my job! And then Mary McAleese came along. But Mary Robinson I know well; she defended me when I was a student, she took our case when we were threatened with jail by the anti-abortion groups in the late ’80s. So yes, I am a huge fan of hers, and I think her election as president was a big turning point symbolically in Ireland, and I also that think that she continues to do a lot of very worthwhile work.
But do you think that the higher you climb up the political ladder, the more obliged you are to compromise your principles? Mary Robinson has recently become involved with Ethical Globalisation Initiative, and to be frank, for someone who’s such a global proponent of transparency, openness, accountability etc, it’s a hugely secretive organisation.
Well, this is a problem. I’ve heard that criticism of the institute she’s involved with, but I have spoken with her about it, and she is passionate about the potential there to try and change corporate behaviour. Her belief is that you can’t just ignore corporations or dismiss them all out of hand, because the point is that they have such power that it is worth trying to change them. In fact, it’s almost as worthwhile trying to change them as it is trying to change governments, because as we all know, the reality is that they do wield enormous influence and have a lot more economic muscle than most countries.
You know, anytime anyone tries to change to things, they’re always going to be slated, whether it’s Bono or Mary Robinson, or even in a much smaller way, myself. It just comes with the territory, so I think it’s just a case of trying to stay as close to your own beliefs as you can, and in so far as is possible, not compromise your beliefs.
Would coalition with Fine Gael be a compromise?
(Laughs) Yes, it would. Look, obviously I would much prefer if Labour could form a government on its own, I think it would be a much more principled, a much more radical and a much more effective government. But there is the reality of numbers, and there is the fact that coalition is the more likely alternative. As I side earlier, by the time the next election rolls around, FF will have been in power for eighteen out of the last twenty years, and I think it is essential that we have a change. And I do think that in terms of numbers and in terms of policies, the obvious alternative is a Fine Gael/Labour/Greens coalition.
With regard to the abortion issue, do your passionate views on the subject simply stem from the fact that your mother was a staunch feminist?
Yes, she grew up in rural Ireland, in County Clare. We moved to Cork when I was very young, and I was raised there in a small village outside the city. So my mother has always stayed true to her beliefs, and joined the Labour Party in West Cork, and at the time she was the only woman in the branch! So, she’s always been a big inspiration to me and remains my biggest political influence. But as it happens, when I was elected president of the Student’s Union here in Trinity as a left-wing activist, we were taken to court by the society for the protection of the unborn child, and we were simply carrying out Union policy, which was to present students with information with all the options open to them in relation to sexuality.
It wasn’t a fight we were anxious to provoke, or a situation that we wanted to inflame in any way, but I suppose the more conservative elements in the culture didn’t quite see it like that. In the end, that case dragged on for seven years, but thankfully, we ultimately won. But that experience was quite an eye-opener, and if anything, the whole saga simply bolstered my views.
Do you think the no vote in the referendum a couple of years back proved that Irish people now definitely have a more liberal attitude towards the issue?
I think generally with regards to sexuality, Irish people’s attitudes have changed hugely in the past ten years. When I left the Student’s Union in 1990, Trinity was still one of the few places in Dublin where you could buy condoms. And back then, the condom machine kept getting vandalised, it was very difficult to be openly gay, and certainly abortion was totally taboo. And you know, in that 14-year period, attitudes have changed enormously, and people are more accepting of difference generally.
In the referendum two years ago, which the government thought they’d win hands down, to me it shows that people are far more tolerant in 21st century Ireland, and to me that’s a really positive development.
Was that referendum a definitive resolution, or is there still more to be done on the issue?
Well, the referendum simply maintained the status quo, it maintained the X case as law. And I think that things are certainly better than they were, in that we’ve now got information more freely available, there’s a crisis pregnancy agency, and that’s all really good. But there’s still 6,000 women a year having to travel to England, and for a lot of them it’s actually very difficult to get the money to make the arrangements to go. I also practice law as well as teaching it, so I can see how the extant legislation effects people, and that changes still need to be come. But I do think it will eventually happen, although it may be a long, incremental process.
With regard to your media profile, you seem to be a particular favourite with the Irish Times. It must be a readymade platform for your political viewpoints.
You know, this is something that gets said to me, but in fact, I’m not in regular contact with anyone from that newspaper, nor do I write a particularly high number of articles for them. In recent times, I’ve actually found myself doing far more pieces for the Irish Independent. I mean, I suppose the IT has been supportive of what I do, but I can’t say that there’s a secret cabal on D’Olier Street that works to ensure my prominence in the publication. I think with the Independent, there’s an equal platform for diverse viewpoints, and I honestly don’t think I’ve been favoured by one over the other. I certainly don’t have a hotline direct to Geraldine Kennedy’s office or anything! (Laughs)
At the other end of the media spectrum, how do you react to the intermittent hatchet job pieces in the Sindo?
Again, it comes with the territory, but my understanding is that since there’s I’m now running in the European elections, the Fianna Fail press office has been actively feeding stories about me to certain publications. Even today, someone told there’s been a piece in a tabloid newspaper, based on a letter I wrote to a friend fifteen years ago. I think it’s a really awful way to conduct political campaigns, and it seems to be something we’ve imported from America. I was working over there during the presidential election in 1988, and Dukakis basically lost out due to the surreptitious smear campaign deployed by the Reagan camp. It’s dreadful and demeaning to the political process, but it seems to have become an ingrained part of campaigning culture.
Finally, you revealed yourself as being a Pulp fan in a HP Mad Hatter’s Box some years ago. Are you still a keen music follower these days?
Oh I am, yes, and I still remain a fan of Jarvis! The most recent gig I went to was the Scissor Sisters in the Village; a few friends of mine in New York mix in the same social circles and had told me that they worth seeing. And it was great gig. The next one I’m really looking forward to is the Red Hot Chili Peppers and The Pixies in the Phoenix Park in the summer. Reunions can be dangerous affairs, but honestly, who wouldn’t want to see The Pixies?
One of all time most memorable musical experiences was Glastonbury. I was working as waitress there, and in fact served Perry Farrell from Jane’s Addiction backstage. He demanded a pint of vodka! I really felt he should have a bottle, but he was pretty insistent on the pint. Then he went onstage and fell over during the second song! Those were the days, I tell you.

[photography Mick Quinn]