John Carney Interview - Once Bitten, Twice Wry

John Carney is something of a triple threat; having enjoyed success as a musician with The Frames, he then turned his talents to both the small and big screen, becoming an acclaimed writer and director.

His career went stratospheric with Once; the Dublin-set musical starring Glen Hansard and Marketa Irglova as star-crossed lovers and busking partners. The Oscar-winning film became an international success and a critical darling, picking up multiple awards and inspiring a Tony Award-winning musical that toured worldwide.
But it seems that Carney wasn’t quite done exploring love, music and intriguing relationships between idealistic dreamers. His new film, Begin Again, stars Keira Knightley, Mark Ruffalo and Adam Levine (of the band Maroon 5) as three people with very different experiences of the music industry. Set in New York, the movie not only echoes the themes explored in Once, but is also another personal project for Carney, as it draws on his own experiences of balancing creativity and fame in an unforgiving business.
Meeting in the soon-to-be closed Factory acting school in Dublin, where the founder has Carney’s Café dedicated to him, the writer and director is already in a nostalgic mood, as the school is readying to leave its home of nearly four years. So begins a free-wheeling chat about Once, his music and how his philosophy lies somewhere between romance and irony...

Before talking about Begin Again, we have to mention Once. It’s still going strong on stage, and is still hugely loved and talked about. Begin Again is even being labelled Twice! Did you ever expect the film to have that kind of impact?

It definitely is the one-off fairytale story of one’s life, especially given how it was made: it was low-key and cheap, rough around the edges. Little did I think it would yield so much. It is the gift that keeps giving.

When you look back now at Once has your perspective changed at all?

It is interesting to look at it now, yeah, and to examine the success. It’s a universal story, so it’s a stealth movie in many ways. It appears to be this tiny indie thing, but I’d learned a few tricks. I’d made a movie with Universal with a bigger budget. Once you make a movie like that, your competition becomes huge. So it’s a different beast, and I think a lot of Irish films that do well are those small stories that just focus on their own thing and don't attempt to take on the big Hollywood movies; that’s their charm. But in order to get an indie film right, you almost have to have had a shot and failed before. So there was lot of stealth in Once, in that it looks like it was made by amateurs, but that was actually intended in a way. It was all sleight of hand: how do you make something seem like it’s not a musical; how do you put a different jacket on something to make it look like it’s not just a sentimental, feel-good story between two people? Because that’s what it is, essentially – but it doesn’t feel like that.

So Begin Again is different in that it has a bigger budget, bigger stars – why did you go that route?

Well, in a way this isn’t a big film. It does have some movie stars in it, but it’s not like Keira Knightley is Meryl Streep or Nicole Kidman. She’s a young girl, who’s been very fortunate. And Mark [Ruffalo] is a theatre actor primarily, who has gone into cinema. And while Adam [Levine] is a pop singer, he’s also just a Jewish kid in a band in a garage in another sense. So I think I made it very much in the same spirit of Once,, just in a different city. But I do want people to know it’s not my attempt to conquer Hollywood or anything. It’s a story I was interested in telling; a lot of it is based on my experiences after Once, of travelling around and meeting a lot of different people and hearing stories about the music industry – and, of course, my own involvement in the music industry in The Frames back in the day.

By American standards, it’s still low budget...

I love the fact that the three characters stand for different points of view about the industry – Knightley plays the young idealistic ingénue, who wants to do her own thing; Ruffalo has the combination of talent and business know-how; and then Levine is this huge star who is completely seduced and changed by the fame and glamour of it all.

Having seen all sides through your own work, do you think these are different stages that most people go through or does everyone fall into one category?

That’s interesting. I don’t necessarily think there are three sides to it, but I think it shows that everyone is battling with what the music industry has become and where it’s going to go. These are big questions. Like, what does it mean to be famous anymore when all these 12-year-old kids are famous because of YouTube or for auditioning for a bunch of middle-aged people while a rent-a-crowd screams that they’re great? Does that mean you’re Led Zeppelin or The Beatles? Hardly. Is rock and roll dead? All those questions are quite ripe at the moment. So this film comes at a good time.

Do we get any answers?

It doesn’t attempt to answer any big questions. It’s clearly set in a world where Knightley’s character is considering all these things. She’s thinking ‘Well, my boyfriend has become famous and actually it’s not that great, and the music industry sucks and has destroyed him – so do I want to go down that route?’ So it’s an interesting collage of characters, all on the outskirts of the music industry and all dealing with their own artistic aspirations and failings. And I know a lot of musicians who have had incredible starts but then things don't go quite as well and now they’re questioning what they’re in it for – is it a love of the art of music, or just habit? It’s an interesting time to look at that.

So looking back over your expectations of the music industry and your career with The Frames, how did ambition and reality measure up?

Well, I was 17 or 18 and at that stage, you just think that life goes on forever and you’re starting new big chapters every few months. So it was just a chapter, to see what would happen at the end. I was very interested in music, and had been all throughout school. Glen just seemed like a very safe bet! He was in it for the long run, and it didn’t seem like it was just a small band that would come and go. So you’re making decisions differently when you’re 18 than you do now – you don’t really make decisions at all, they’re made for you in a weird way. But I did learn a lot and saw a lot of the exploitation of young people. It’s an interesting industry in that it is made up of older businessmen and younger kids, which is always going to be a weird marriage. It’s like the film industry in that way, but not like any other art form.

Did you ever feel exploited in any way?

Not personally, because I didn’t have a lot at stake, really; I was just one of the band. Glen had a lot more at stake and that band was very clearly his vision. I mean, we were part of that vision and got involved, but it was his thing. So I was happy to sit on the sidelines and observe it and not get too emotionally involved. I got more invested when I left and got involved in film, because that was my own thing. I’d get very anxious and lose sleep over it, and worry a lot about the results. Film was definitely my first love, and music was my second.

It always feels like a brave move for Irish people to have dreams of going into music or film. So where did you get your confidence from?

I dropped out of school at 17 in fifth year in order to join the band. I had played in the school band before, and then that summer met The Frames and joined them and had to quickly decide whether I was going to go back to school or not. But then I left the band to go do films. In hindsight it does seem quite ballsy! But at the time it was just that life was so exciting and full of possibility. So, on the one hand, everyone’s saying you’re in band, you have a wage, you should stay put, and no-one makes films apart from Neil Jordan and Jim Sheridan, so what are you thinking? For me it was just a no-brainer. I had a collaborator in Tom Hall and there was a bit of an honour amongst thieves philosophy – we were in it together, and there was a bit of a community of kids in Ireland going around with camcorders. It was a new little wave, and the Film Board was backing it. It felt possible.

There were lots of shots leaked from the making of this film by fans who saw you filming in New York; did having stars in the film make it an entirely different experience from your other work?

Once you film anything in New York, it becomes a very different experience from filming in Ireland. I’m sure back home, pictures of shooting looked very groovy and cool, but once you’re there, so much of it is about beauty and youth and photography and gossip and all that stuff: it’s all happening all the time. It’s Fashion Week or a play is opening or there’s a band, and everyone gets caught up in it. So it’s not that surprising or flattering when it happens to you. It just makes it a bit harder to work when the paparazzi are snapping away.

I love the relationships in Begin Again, which are similar to Once in that they’re unexpected. The relationships in your films are more complicated, and don’t have the tidy resolution. Where do you think you fall on the romantic/cynic spectrum?

I can’t actually think of a romantic story that I’ve liked where the guy ends up getting the girl. They’re always shit movies! So for Americans it’s constantly a surprise, but for us I think it’s a no-brainer: we grow up reading literature about awful, incredible, doomed relationships where they all die or there’s this sense of longing and yearning. Anna Karenina, Terms of Endearment, – all the great stories are about the relationships that don’t work, that are war-torn or unresolved. It seems to me that the boy shouldn’t ever get the girl! It’s not how life is, is it? You never get what you thought you would get at 17. It’s always different.

Wasn’t Once based on your own experiences of struggling with a long-term relationship?

Yeah, that completely fed into it. It was that thing of how do you fall in love with somebody and then tell your girlfriend about it? Love is tricky like that.

One of the interesting aspects of Once was that Glen and Marketa Irglova did get together. How much of your characters’ interactions come from your observing the chemistry between the stars? Do you begin writing for them?

Not really. It helped the publicity of Once that Glen and Mar were involved, but that was a very specific story that would have been the same no matter who was playing it. I think it helps when the actors go against their own personalities, when they’re actually playing a role. Keira Knightley is very different from her character. Keira’s not a romantic, she’s very pragmatic and dedicated to her work. Mark plays this drunken mess, but he’s actually a family man, and extremely passionate about political causes. And the romance in the film is really with the city; it's about being in New York. So Glen and Mar were the exception. Though they were still figuring things out when we were filming, it did help with how relaxed they are with each other. I think there is an innocent desire for films to be real. And in a way, making a film is very romantic: you have this intimate family unit and it’s intense – and then you’re suddenly separated. There are stories of directors like Howard Hawks, who made To Have and Have Not with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall – Hawks fancied her like mad, but Bogart and Bacall fell in love on set. Howard Hawks was pissed off, but he realised this was a golden opportunity and let their chemistry feed onscreen, so you can see that, in their love scenes, they’re only acting a bit. There can be a fine line between love and art.

New York is this city of dreams. But you don’t portray it as perfect.

New York isn’t my city of choice to live in – though we did look at an apartment there the other day – but in a way it photographs better than it is. Places like Paris and Venice are as incredible as they seem on film. New York’s a rough, cruel city, and you have to put a frame on it, because off to one corner this hideous thing is happening.

While filming you had a bit of a run-in with a homeless man who decided to "baptise" you...

Yup, that’s now the go-to story if anyone asks what it’s like to live in New York! I saw this homeless guy urinating into a polystyrene cup and he then threw it into the trash. I got splashed and I’m ninety percent sure that a drop went into my eye. I think that’s a New York initiation – you know you’ve gone native when that stuff starts to happen to you.

You’ve gone native with the Hollywood crew as well. CeeLo Green appears in the film; Judd Apatow is producing; and Jonah Hill was bigging you up and made the recommendation.

It’s hard to describe to people in Ireland what it was like bringing Once to L.A. They didn’t just love it; it was like I had made Casablanca,. I was living there off and on for a while, and every time I'd go out, every doctor or dentist you’d see or every dinner party you’d go to – everyone had seen the film, and cried during it, and felt this deep connection to it. It was a great connector: everyone wanted to share it with those who hadn’t seen it. It was almost a social networking thing. Naturally, when you’re in a town full of famous people that border gets crossed... so Jonah Hill was praising it and got Judd involved. And Judd’s become a really good friend: he’s a great collaborator and very smart about story and character – and obviously this huge force of nature within the film industry. So Begin Again was a blessed project from the start.

Judd Apatow's work is brilliant and funny, but I think it was instrumental in starting a trend of exploring the psyche of juvenile men, who are in their 30s and still floundering. You seem to come from an opposite angle, where your male characters are complex and self-aware?

Judd’s men are boy-men, that’s true. I think men of that generation are struggling, in that they don’t have to wear a suit and tie to work anymore or look like Don Draper. I always think of my Dad as one of those real, old-fashioned men. The only time my Dad didn’t shave was when he had a really bad cold. He's basically shaved for 82 years! He’s always clean-shaven, wears a tie, is retired but still has suits, looks well groomed. He looked like a man, and my mother looked like a mother. She wore a fur coat, and got out of a car like a princess. Women looked like women and wore elegant clothes and heels. And your parents looked like parents.

So what's changed?

There’s a huge problem with men nowadays, in that they must feel 10 years younger than they are! Everything in the culture is telling you to be young and cool and never be out of touch and have a Facebook and a Twitter and all that stuff. So now, men in their 40s must feel ‘Oh I want to score some hash and listen to music’. So Judd’s exploring the men caught in that period. Often I’ll meet a guy on his bike with a helmet and his iPod and iPhone and we’ll be chatting about bands – and then his three kids will come out of the shop. For a second, I thought he was a kid, I thought he was 25, but he’s got a job and a mortgage and three kids. Men have to be both now: be all that but also look like a groovy funky hipster with a fixie bike.

Sounds like the subject for a documentary!

The Trip, with Rob Brydon and Steve Coogan does that very well. It shows two men wandering around Italy chatting and having good food – but also talking about what it’s like to be 47. It addresses that boy-man thing of ‘Why isn’t that 27 year-old-girl looking at me anymore?’ Whereas my parents’ generation didn’t need to cling onto their youth; the men didn’t care about 27-year-old girls. Or it seemed like they didn't. It affects women too in that sense.

In your films, the women aren’t merely prizes to be won. And you also show women, not just teenage girls. Catherine Keener has a lovely role in Begin Again as Mark Ruffalo’s intelligent, successful ex-wife.

I’m really glad you responded to that. Catherine’s brilliant, and such a brilliant person. That relationship also felt like the real thing. I do want to explore the different stages of life in my work, and show the different decisions you make in your life. It’s important to have relationships that suit and reflect where you are. And you’re right – I think real adult relationships can go ignored too often. Just because we may feel we’re 20 inside our heads, we’re actually 45, and that development needs to be on screen. All I need now is for Ireland not to have that begrudging thing and get on board with the film...

Begin Again is in cinemas from July 11