John Deasy

To most casual political watchers in Ireland he was just another of the anonymously dapper TDs who crop up on TV when the rest of the gang are either away on junkets or lying low while the latest bout of corruption swirls around the political arena. Then along cames the smoking ban and he lights up in the Dail bar. Exit stage right from his post as Fine Gael spokesperson on Justice and straight into the headlines.

When I meet John Deasy, the son of former Fine Gael TD Austin Deasy, in his Dungarvan office he comes across as dapper as I expected but a little more dour than your average glad-handing teachta dala. Polite and articulate, he also seems more than a little irritated by the over-the-top reaction of the media to his smoking “crime” and not at all happy about the gombeenisms of politics in Ireland. Or maybe it’s just that his secretary’s on holidays or the noise of the work from the street is infiltrating his office.

Jackie Hayden: How did you first get into politics?
John Deasy: I went to the USA when I was 18. I spent about four years in college there and my interest in politics grew. I got very friendly with the President of the college and asked him if there was any way I could get into something political. He knew a Republican fundraiser who knew a Democrat who knew a Republican chief of staff and a Senator on Capitol Hill and so on. After an interview I got a job.
As what?
As a legislative assistant. I handled trade matters for Senator John Heinz of Heinz Ketchup fame. He was a moderate Republican for Pittsburg and a great guy. His wife Theresa is now married to John Kerry, the current Democrat candidate. I worked for Senator Heinz for about a year until he was killed in a plane crash. Then I lobbied for a Pittsburg company for about for two years until the company went out of business and then I went back to Capitol Hill to work for the Rhode Island congressman Ron Machtley working on several issues, including foreign affairs and trade. He was a liberal Republican. Then I became manager of legislative affairs for a Chicago law firm until I was accepted for law school at UCC and I came back to Ireland.
Did you choose to work with Republicans from some political commitment or was it just for the jobs?
No, just for the jobs. There’s very little difference between the moderate elements of the Republican and Democrat parties. If you took Heinz and compared him to a Southern Democrat you’d probably find that Democrat more conservative, particularly on social issues.
Were you ever tempted to stay within the American political system?
No. I had enough of it, and I wanted to come home after 11 years.
If you were there now, who would you be rooting for?
I wouldn’t be rooting for Bush, even though my allegiances might be with the Republicans. He gives me the heebie-jeebies sometimes. I’m not so sure he knows what he’s doing.
What about Kerry?
He’s probably one of the most wishy-washy politicians I’ve ever experienced. When I was working in the US Senate in 1990-1991 he was known as the most milk and water politician in the Senate. They take their consistencies very seriously in the USA, and he was well down there.
Who would you bet on to win the Presidential election?
Bush. There are way too many questions over Kerry.
Would you support Bush’s foreign policy?
I never had a problem with the Americans going into Iraq, knowing the kind of man Saddam Hussein was. Removing him as head of that country is a good thing and will be seen as a good thing by generations to come. But they screwed up the intelligence very badly. They didn’t know what they were getting themselves into. Compare their policing roles with that of the British. The British understand that if you’re going to have peace and normality you have to learn to interact properly with the people, and the Americans have displayed absolutely no ability to do that at all, and they were always going to get into trouble with Moslem fundamentalists. They’re too bullheaded sometimes. Their efforts to integrate with Iraqis have been pathetic and they’re getting worse.
Saddam Hussein killed many innocent Iraqis and Iranians. George Bush has killed many innocent Afghanis and Iraqis, so what’s the difference between them?
The first one is body bags, numbers, when you consider the numbers killed indiscriminately by Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. These were brutal, repressive regimes. But an unacceptable amount of civilians have been killed since the Americans went in. I saw a film about the taking of Baghdad and listening to these sergeants and captains and lieutenants talking casually about children being killed by their munitions, it’s entirely unacceptable. In a war there’s a price, and there’s a price for taking Saddam Hussein out.
Is there a practical answer to the present mess?
Well, the practical answer is for them to leave. But that would make things worse. You would have a complete bloodbath between the Sunnis and the Shias. The Americans have been sucked into the worst possible situation, a popular uprising of feeling against a foreign unwelcome invader. They might have had the best intentions, but when you see the Sunnis and the Shias praying and acting together against the Americans, you’ve got a serious, serious problem which may get an awful lot worse.
Was it your American experience that prompted you to get involved in Irish politics?
No, it was my experiences with my father when I was here. He asked me would I be interested in running for the County Council. I didn’t really know what I was getting myself in for.
You sound quite negative about it.
No. I’d been out of the country for 11 years so it was hard to know how people would react to me. I topped the poll here (in Dungarvan) in the local elections in 1999. People thought I had a good chance of getting elected, but nobody ever said I’d top the poll. I just knocked on every door on my own. I didn’t have people with me and I just explained myself. People let their guard down if you come to their door on your own.
Don’t most Irish people vote for the same party all the time and only a tiny handful are likely to change at any election?
I don’t think that’s true. I think people vote for individuals as opposed to the issues. More so now, they vote for individuals who can actually represent them.
Regardless of party?
Regardless of party. There is a tradition that’s very strong in Fianna Fail in particular and part of that might always remain. It’s almost like a club, a movement, like our grandfathers and their grandfathers. But that’s dissipated in other parties. It’s on the wane.
You took a stand on the smoking issues that seemed out of character in so far as I’m not aware of you taking similar stands over other issues.
No, I take stands on loads of things. I’m surprised you’d say that!
But not to the point of breaking the law.
Ah, that breaking the law stuff is a load of nonsense! I break the law every time I get into my car, you know.
How do you mean?
Let’s say I do 31 in a 30 zone. Ok? Let’s put things in context here about law-breaking and politics. Our value system in this country might be a little screwed up, when you look at what’s been happening in the Dail over the last 20 years and the criminal excesses that existed in there, and the kind of slating I got from the media over having a few cigarettes after trying to comply with the law by trying to leave the bloody place!
But if a member of the public did it, that excuse wouldn’t stand up.
Well, sure we’re going to find out, aren’t we? We haven’t seen any cases yet. I know plenty of people who have been smoking in pubs since then ....
But they haven’t been charged yet?
Well, they haven’t been informed on by the publican (laughs).
Do you think that adherence to the law will dissipate in time?
Yeah. It will. People do believe this is excessive. They understand that non-smokers don’t want their lungs polluted. Who wouldn’t agree with that? Who could argue the plusses of smoking, right? It kills, you, right? But people who pay their taxes should be given the opportunity to smoke if they want to.
Would you apply that to smoking marijuana?
No. We have enough problems with substance abuse in this country. Our biggest drug problem is with alcohol. It’s rampant, and it’s so destructive with young people. We just don’t have handle on it, from a public order stand-point, and from a health stand-point: suicide, absenteeism, drownings, you name it. So I don’t think we should add to the problem by legalising marijuana, except when it comes to people who are very ill then it could be prescribed by a doctor under strict terms and conditions.
Logic would suggest then that alcohol should be banned?
No. Drink is legal. But I said it during debates on alcohol last year that somebody that shoves a glass into somebody’s face should be severely punished even when they’re pissed. But I’ll defend anyone’s right to drink themselves to death if they want. If you want to drink 50 pints of Guinness every night I’m not going to try and stop you. OK? You have a right to do that. The answer isn’t to take glasses out of people’s hands, and it’s the same with smoking. If you go out and get drunk and go home without committing any crime, I couldn’t care less. Absolutely.
So you’d have no qualms about breaking the law again in relation to smoking?
I’m not going to say that. I’m not getting into hypothetical questions.
You could say, “no, I won’t”.
No, I’m not going to say that.
You referred earlier to criminal excesses in the Dail. Could you give me one or two examples?
Do you really need examples? Two? Are you joking me? (laughs)
I’d like to know if the ones you have in mind are the same ones I have in mind!
Let’s see. (Thinks) Criminal excesses… Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor… infractions… Michael Collins, John Ellis, Beverley Cooper-Flynn, Emmet Stagg, John O’Donoghue speeding down the road at 100 miles an hour...
Would you say that, compared to them, your criminal offence was minor?
Let people figure that out themselves. The reaction from people is, “For God’s sake, would you get a grip on yourselves”. They understand what’s being going on in the Dail over the last few years and they understand what I did and the “gravity” of it and it makes them laugh. Don’t just believe me. Look.
(He shows me the latest issue of the Waterford News and Star which features a banner headline “Should John Deasy be fined for breaking the smoking ban?” Underneath, seven named and photographed individuals offer mixed, if generally sympathetic, views on the question.)
You give the impression you’ve been hard done by by the media over the smoking issue?
Not hard done by. I don’t want to give the impression that I feel sorry for myself because I don’t. They got it wrong. Go out and listen to the people. Don’t make up your mind in your ivory tower, or in your middle-class bar on Dawson Street in Dublin. Go to Cratlow in Clare or to Cappoquin and talk to people. And talk to the non-smokers. Then compare what they say to the editorial writers in the Irish Times or The Irish Independent, The Sunday Independent and all these smart guys in Dublin. There are a lot of people out there who are really upset about this, who believe there should have been some kind of middle ground.
So would you like to see the law repealed or changed?
No, changed to some kind of middle ground. The law didn’t take into consideration that for some people their only love in life was to go down to the pub for a smoke. For many people, particularly in rural Ireland, it’s the only social outlet they have. So maybe exemptions or licenses could be given to people with owner-operated pubs. In New York I believe that if you can prove that your revenue is down sufficiently then you can apply for a smoking exemption.
How have your actions affected perceptions of Fine Gael?
The one fear I had was that Fine Gael candidates running in the local elections might be affected by this, but they’ve become positively ebullient about the issue because at last there’s at least one person in Fine Gael who stood up for something. Politicians in this country have become terrified about being criticised by the media and they do things according to the media. They determine what the media reaction is going to be before making a decision. They might check it out with a journalist, or whatever. So you end up with government by media, with a bunch of TDs, by and large, who are wary of making decisions that might incur the wrath of the media.
So who do you admire for speaking out, even in spite of that fear of the media?
Whether you like him or not, or his politics, Joe Higgins. Michael McDowell says it the way he feels it. He may be excessive in some ways, but you always know where you stand with the guy. ...Gay Mitchell is another. ... With Labour, I’m not sure there’s anyone. I find them a really jaded bunch of people. Pat Rabbitte’s a lovely man, but he’s having real difficulties.
Do you think Labour will be the main losers to Sinn Fein in future elections?
Yeah, big time. Sinn Fein are gobbling up their grassroots support all over the country.
Would you be happy if Fine Gael considered going into coalition with Sinn Fein?
No. never. I wouldn’t dream of it.
How do you feel about Sinn Fein being in government in the North?
I couldn’t care less about the North. I live in the South of Ireland. Once they decommission, once they involve themselves with the policing boards, and a number of other things, then and only then will I consider Sinn Fein as a coalescing partner in any government. I’m not going to make allowances for a party that is still a criminal entity, whose members are still robbing our banks, robbing us blind, which really isn’t interested in involving itself totally in a peace process, who have hedged and delayed and prevaricated for almost ten years.
Don’t our two main parties have their roots in criminality from their earliest days, when they too were actively murdering people?
Criminality? Both my grandfathers were in the IRA. One of them later became a garda. So I don’t know what your talking about when you say criminality.
During the civil war both sides broke the law by murdering opponents. What’s the difference between what they did then and what the IRA did later?
The difference is that my grandfather didn’t put a bomb in a street where children were playing.
So it’s their targets that make the difference?
Yeah, it’s certainly part of it. I don’t think the old IRA would have blown up 14 or 15 year olds or torn to bits elderly people at a commemoration ceremony or left a car bomb to kill innocent civilians. When my grandfather and his mates were fighting with Tom Barry in West Cork, if they found a British soldier usually what they did was feed him and put him on his way.
So do you regard the North as a subject of no interest to you?
Of course I’m interested. We all live on the same island. But the growth of Sinn Fein is worrying for me. It reminds me how badly wrong politicians in the South have got it over the last 10 or 15 years, that they’ve allowed this vacuum to be created so that anyone, even as bad as Sinn Fein, could step in and pick up votes at a whim. Politicians have become so far removed from people and got such a bad reputation, particularly starting with Fianna Fail and their criminal behaviour over the last 15 years. People have become sick of politicians and painted everybody with the same brush. People are prepared to vote for anyone now as opposed to the traditional parties, particularly working-class people. They don’t see any real alternative or anyone properly representing them. So with Sinn Fein, their image particularly suits young males between the age of 18 to 25. They can say anything they want and get these people to vote for them.
Is the decline in people voting an even bigger problem?
Oh yeah. People have switched off. All you have to do is look at the numbers. People don’t see politics as being really relevant to their lives at all. They’ve better things to be doing! For them the Dail has become incredibly irrelevant, boring, the same-old same-old.
How do you arrest that trend?
Give them choices. People want strong leadership. They don’t want the usual political waffle you see every night on television. I’ve found that even people who’ve argued with me and disagreed with me will afterwards tell me that they’re going to vote for me because they feel I believe in what I’m saying. People feel that most politicians are just in it for their own self-service, to collect a salary every month, and I can’t say I disagree with them.
Is Enda Kenny’s removal of you from your post an indication of the type of strong leadership you’d advocate?
(Laughs) He had to make a decision and he did. Fair play to him. I won’t be getting overly upset about it. It’s life – get on with it.
Would you want to go back on the front bench at some point?
Maybe, maybe not. It’s been really difficult the last couple of years, dealing with the constituency, taking on the justice portfolio. You don’t get time to deal with local issues as much as you should. It’s no wonder two-thirds of the Fine Gael front bench lost their seats last time.
Where do you stand on the citizenship referendum?
Good question. About fifteen months ago I was quoted on the front page of The Examiner advocating a change in the law. We got it wrong when we put the Good Friday Agreement together in a way that copper-fastened this aspect of it. I was criticised internally by my own party for saying that. I got hit over the head for this. I wanted the party to make a decision, to come out one way or the other and be definite where they stood on it. Since then the Government have done all the running on it. But I suppose that’s what really upsets me about Fine Gael sometimes, that we don’t seem to be capable of making definite stands on things.
Is that not a leadership problem?
I think it’s an institutional problem that we have. When people think of Fine Gael they don’t have anything in their heads that Fine Gael mean to them. They might have had in the Garret Fitzgerald era, but we’ve got into this habit of sitting on the fence with issue after issue after issue. We’ve got into an awful habit of prevaricating.
What about the timing of the referendum with the local elections?
They’re wrong to have it on June 11. Every weirdo and racist who’s running in the local elections is being given an opportunity to stand on an issue which goes unfortunately to the core of the fears of some people in this country, and wrongly so. In the last election we saw some people becoming quite popular by taking an anti-immigrant stance. You’ve got to separate that issue from the local elections. It’s very ill-advised. It’s stupid. Mary Harney approached me about this in the Dail bar. It was probably the last thing I did as Fine Gael justice spokesman and I gave her my views.
So you’ll be voting “yes”?
Oh yes. The timing is wrong, but I support the principle behind it.

THE BIGGEST QUESTION OF THEM ALL
Are you glad to see Roy Keane back in the Ireland squad?
I am, yeah. Regardless of what you think of what happened in Saipan, the reality is that we want to qualify for the next
World Cup, and he’s still one of the best players we have.

Isn’t there a danger he might walk out again?
Yeah, but sure if we get a couple of games out of him we’ll be doing well! (Laughs).