Just say know

Joe McDonagh was born in 1953 in Co. Galway and was awarded a first class honours Degree in Celtic Studies at University College Galway. His professional career has included stints as a Tutor and Lecturer in the Department of Irish in University College Galway, as an Irish teacher, Director of the Irish Language Summer Course at Colaiste Einde, Galway and acting Chief Executive Officer of the County Galway Vocational Educational Committee.

From 1997 to 2000 he was President of the Gaelic Athletic Association, overseeing the implementation of a number of initiatives including the hosting of the first ever National Forum for Women in Gaelic Games and the development of a National Youth Charter. In May 2000 he became Chairman of TG4.

Joe is a keen sportsman and was a senior hurler for Galway between 1972 and 1983 and captain of the Galway hurling team in 1979.

In 1986 he was a sports pundit for RTE Television and for a couple of years was Head of Sport at Galway Bay FM. He’s a Director of the 2003 World Summer Special Olympics and is also a member of the Irish Heart Health Task Force.

Joe McDonagh was appointed Chairman of the Steering Committee for the National Anti-Racism Awareness Programme last year.

JACKIE HAYDEN: Why is there a need for this campaign now?

JOE MCDONAGH: It’s quite clearly recognised from our day to day experiences that we have a racism problem in this country. We’ve had an increasing number of newcomers and visitors to our shores, about 250,000 in the last five years. Most are invited by ourselves with work permits and visas to fill labour shortages, and only about 10% are asylum seekers and refugees. But it’s a new experience for Ireland to have so many newcomers and for our society having to come to grips with that. Perhaps our insularity over the years and a fear and a lack of knowledge are bringing these issues to the fore. Many people who have been working in this field would claim that the campaign should have been introduced earlier.

JH: What is the aim of the programme?

JM: The overall aim is to help create the conditions for building an inclusive and intercultural society in which racism is effectively addressed and in which we value cultural diversity.

The Steering Committee was set up to implement the programme and our partners include the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It also includes representatives of ethnic minorities, IBEC, ICTU, the community and voluntary sectors, the farming sector, and national bodies such as the Equality Authority and the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, the relevant government Departments and the Gardai.

JH: Are the problems faced by these newcomers varied depending on whether they’re white or non-white?

JM: They are, and significantly so. When we started, one of the strategies we put in place was to commence a baseline research report. That was most informative for us because it identified the point you’re making. The highest level of incidents we’ve recorded to date centre on those of black colour, primarily those of African origin, and also the Romanys and the travellers. The travellers come under our brief as well.

JH: Can you give me a particularly bad example of racism you’ve come across?

JM: It’s difficult to single out one case when there are so many, but one that sticks in my mind is that of a Nigerian, a professional man, who was subject to racist abuse from young children when he was simply out shopping. This was not an isolated incident but a situation of continual abuse and it leaves that man wondering what values are we inculcating in our homes, in our educational system and in society at large, if you can have children hurling racist abuse at others in the streets.

JH: There’s the anomaly that those kids or others using racist language might be big fans of black musicians like, say Michael Jackson or Destiny’s Child, or support football teams with black players.

JM: Well, there’s no doubt there’s a contradiction and it’s a very complex issue. Just look at our own sporting heroes, like Chris Hughton or Paul McGrath, who were so proud to wear the Irish jersey and are often revered by the same people who use racist language and gestures. We’re under no illusions in undertaking to change those attitudes, but it won’t happen over night.

JH: There may be cases of people casually using racist language with the intent to annoy somebody and that it may not be meant as seriously as it might appear.

JM:I concur with that. Generally speaking in Ireland we have a loose perception of the language we use at times. I’ve experienced that in my sporting activities. It concerned me and all those involved in the administration of Gaelic games and promoting discipline and fair play, the level of the free use of language on the field, abuse of referees, abuse of fellow players, abuse of the opposition or the abuse you hear hurled from the sidelines. It annoys me intensely. But it does bring home to me that a lot of that abuse is not really meant literally, although that does not justify it.

JH: How would you define racism?

JM: Without intellectualising about it, our message for our campaign distils it down as simply as possible to racism being a deprivation of basic human rights, dignity and respect. We want to encourage the kind of respect for each other, no matter what nationality, race or creed we may belong to, that we would expect in any civilised society.

JH: Aren’t people who are racist and who claim to be Christians simply deluding themselves?

JM: Absolutely. What we have to do is to question people, to challenge individuals and families, to question their attitudes in the context of whatever band of values they have, be they religious or otherwise, so that they will, we hope, examine their own attitudes and ask themselves what values they themselves want to bring to society. None of the religions, whether Christian or not, when you distil their basic beliefs, can encompass racism.

JH: Sport is an area which you see as important, through which you can get your message across. But many sports terraces have to have fans segregated. If say, it isn’t safe to let Tottenham and Arsenal fans freely mingle with each other, what hope is there for them embracing different races and nationalities?

JM: I take your point, but from an Irish standpoint I think we’re blessed really with our situation here now. We may have had our troubles in the past. Certainly the GAA had them and we know what happened in Northern Ireland and that whole sectarian underbelly, but we have supporters mingle freely with each other and great mutual respect and maybe the odd bit of banter. But sport is a positive vehicle through which we can disseminate information and integrate the newcomers who come amongst us. That’s happening in all sports. Look at Irish basketball. Their star player Mike Mitchell is very proud to wear an Irish jersey and many of the Super League teams have black Americans playing with them.

We’re also hearing great stories from the GAA schools competitions where we can already see the promotion of multi-culturalism where it really counts, among the young people.

JH: What about the argument that races are simply not meant to mix and that segregation is the answer?

JM: I think that brings me back to an introductory sentence of welcome that Mary Robinson as United Nations High Commissioner made to us in South Africa when attending the UN conference on racism. She spoke of us all constituting “One human race”. We must constantly come back to that basic premise. The human race is comprised of many cultures, creeds, religions, a great diversity that enriches a world that unfortunately is often spoiled by various conflicts, the great bane of our history.

JH: Have you any sympathy with those who object to the fact that we are expected to allow others to come here and, say, build mosques, but who come from countries where the same freedoms are not reciprocated? For example, the Taliban were holding people for preaching Christianity in Afghanistan and the Bahia faith has been brutally oppressed in Iran and Iraq.

JM: Oh I do indeed, but it can never justify racism. I think for all of us who attended that conference in South Africa it was an educational experience, frightening in many ways.

JH: Why frightening?

JM: It was frightening to come face-to-face with the depth of feeling of anti-white and anti-west that was expressed, most particularly by Palestinians and those of the Islamic community and the Muslim faith. It showed the enormity of the challenge that faces us all. A lot of their deeply-held views strangled the possibilities and potential that the conference had, although it did at least succeed in getting the draft declaration and the programme of action accepted. But there are peoples who, as they become more educated, are learning more about the wrongs of history.

JH: Were there not religious wrongs too, with Christian missionaries going to countries and foisting Christianity on them in the most arrogant way whether they wanted it our not?

JM: Yes, undoubtedly. The whole question of colonisation, whether political or otherwise, has left a legacy that we’re now confronting. Looking back on it now from what we think are more civilised, more enlightened times, one would question the tactics employed and the strategies used and feel that these were very, very wrong.

JH: Does our racism problem damage our image abroad and impact on tourism?

JM: I don’t think it’s that bad yet. But through survey after survey we are recognising that it’s an increasing problem. It’s been said that Europe is in denial about its past, and that includes Ireland. But I don’t think we’re perceived as a racist nation right now. There’s still that perception of us as a welcoming people. The Minister For Sport Jim McDaid has said that we need to promote that image more and that we’re losing it a bit.

JH:The racism problem seems to be a fairly recent one. Do you think it really is?

JM: I think racism comes from a combination of ignorance and fear, and they in turn may stem from our insularity. I say that in the context of our history of emigration right up to the 1980’s, although that situation has been reversed. At times we suffer amnesia in relation to that past, and in spite of the awful racism our own people often experienced abroad, we earned a reputation as a non-racist nation. But we’ve never had to deal with visitors in such numbers and that seems to be the nub of the matter. But you might have to examine our treatment of travellers to get the answer to your question. Our track record in that regard has not been good, and you’ll still find deep prejudice and discrimination against our own people!

JH: We’ve been extremely generous at times, sending money to Ethiopia and truck loads of goods to Bosnia and so on; it’s as if we’re happy to help people if they stay where they are but we don’t want them here!

JM: Yes, there are so many contradictions in this area that we are only now beginning to realise and it may take us some time to resolve those contradictions. But we have to make a start and I think it’ll be good for us.

JH: Hasn’t the racism problem been made worse by the Government not taking action earlier?

JM: It’s not my position to defend the Government, but the introduction of the Employment Equality Act of 1998 and the Equal Status Act of 2000 were two very important instruments from a human rights perspective that stand comparison with anything in Europe. Many countries are looking at what we’ve done with a view to updating their own legislation. Let’s also remember that the increase in newcomers to Ireland happened fairly suddenly. In retrospect perhaps people will say it could have been handled better and I think the Department of Justice would acknowledge that, but much has been achieved in the interim.

JH: Do you need to be wary of immigrants using racism or perceived racism as an excuse?

JM: It’s a very complex issue. Of course you don’t want to create a bandwagon where people can latch on to something just for the sake of it and perhaps give a wrong impression. So yes, one has to be wary, but you can’t hide from the fact of the increase of racist incidents in Ireland.

JH: Is there any validity in the argument that most adults should be able to shrug off offensive comments, including those which may be racist?

JM: But surely shrugging it off as you put it does not justify the perpetration of the racism comment in the first place? This comes back to our casual use of language I mentioned earlier. I would like us to become more careful in our use of language. I think that questioning our use of words and our free way with language, whether expletives or derogatory comments about each other, or whatever, would be good for us anyway. I know that I myself have certainly become more careful and I think that others have too. It’s an enriching experience for any society to question itself, its modes of behaviour and its values.

JH: Has music a role to play in your campaign?

JM: Definitely, music and the Arts will play a key role. If anything breaks down cultural barriers it’s music and we have several initiatives planned, involving local performers and from overseas, all joining with us to get this crucial message across. Some of the most positive messages about discrimination, prejudice and racism have come to us through music and song. These messages transcend generations as well. So obviously we’re delighted to join with Hotpress in this initiative, including the fine CD compilation your readers are receiving with this issue. We recognise the ethos of Hotpress and value its contribution towards multi-culturalism over a long period of time.

JH: Why is it that we heed messages from Christy Moore or Jack L or Kila which we don’t or won’t heed from government ministers, or members of the religious establishment?

JM: I think it’s the power of music really and the influence these people have as well. Traditionally we’ve been people who enjoy music, song and dance, so messages can be put across in a very enjoyable manner.

JH: Hotpress has been unswerving in encouraging multi-culturalism and mutual respect, so what would you want the readers to do now in practical terms?

JM: I think that all of us, me, you and your readers, can decide to challenge racist behaviour any time we encounter it, be it with friends, colleagues or family. We can all assist multi-cultural initiatives and existing groups on the ground and we can participate in multi-cultural activities, to show others that there’s nothing to fear, nothing to be lost and, more importantly, much to be gained for all of us.