The Daly News

“You’re not going to do your Vincent Browne routine or anything, are you?” laughs Clare Daly, as Hot Press switches the digital recorder on. “Be all nasty and aggressive and argumentative and that?”

It’s clear from the off that the recently elected Socialist Party TD for the Dublin North constituency doesn’t particularly enjoy being interviewed. She’s not overly keen on being photographed either, visibly stiffening up when snapper Graham Keogh gets to work.
It’s not that she’s media shy, just possibly a little wary of long-form interviews (apparently a fellow TD had advised extreme caution when talking to us). Born in Kildare in 1968, the fiery redhead was educated at Dublin City University, where she became heavily involved in the student movement’s campaign for abortion rights and information. She was twice elected as SU president.
After graduating, she worked for Aer Lingus. She remains a SIPTU shop-steward in the airline and has consistently campaigned in defence of workers’ pay and conditions. Elected to Labour’s Administrative Committee as a youth representative, she was expelled from the party in 1989, alongside Joe Higgins TD and other supporters of the Militant Tendency.
Daly was first elected as a councillor on Fingal County Council for the Swords area in 1999. She was an organiser of the successful anti-water charges campaign in Swords in the mid-’90s. In 2003, she and Joe Higgins were among the 21 people controversially sentenced to a month in Mountjoy for breaching a High Court order related to their anti-bin tax campaign.
Somehow I doubt she’ll be talking rubbish today…

OLAF TYARANSEN: You grew up in Kildare?
CLARE DALY: Yeah, Newbridge, Co. Kildare. I left Newbridge when I was 17 to study in NIHE, Dublin – as it was at the time. I studied accounting and finance for three years. I was president of the Students’ Union twice after that and during the time when the college was changed to being what it is now, DCU.
Do you come from a big family?
No, I have a brother and a sister.
What did your parents do?
Staunch blueshirts. My father was an army officer. He’s dead now. But it was a normal background.
Were they political?
No, absolutely not. My mother was bragging to my daughter recently about having never been on a protest, which I obviously find quite shocking. But no, not political at all. But they would have voted Fine Gael.
When did your own interest in politics begin?
I suppose I got involved in politics with the Labour Party around 1986, around the divorce referendum. At the time, and certainly in Kildare, they were the only people at the time actively arguing for divorce. So I got involved in the Labour Party and that set up a branch in the college and was involved in Labour Youth. Really, I suppose, my political involvement wasn’t really party political. It was more issue-based.
You were expelled from the Labour Party in ’89. What was that about?
We were involved around a group called the Militant Tendency which produced a newspaper. We would say they represented the ideas we represent and stand for now, but the original ideas that the Labour Party was founded on – the idea of socialism, the need to break with the market system, and so on. We were expelled for being a member of two organisations, if you like, but we would say it was because we were trying to defend the traditions of the Labour Party, and those in the hierarchy wanted the Mercs and perks, and that it erupted over the nomination of Joe Higgins as a Labour Party deputy in the branches in Dublin West. He was nominated by that constituency and party head office wouldn’t have that because obviously Joe, as he does now, and as I do, would have been standing on a TD, on a worker’s wage, a worker’s representative, and that would have exposed a lot of the others. So that was the witchhunt, as it was called (laughs), initiated at that time. And 12 people were expelled. I was expelled; so was he; and actually deputy Joan Collins was expelled as well.
Are you a feminist?
I’m primarily a socialist, but I defend and fight for women’s rights. I wouldn’t define myself as a feminist but I would be a strong advocator of women’s rights. Actually, one the things I’m most proud of is the role that we played in USI and in the students’ movement around the time of the fight for the right to abortion information. We were very much involved in the USI campaign, where SPUC took their legal action against the USI officers. You know, we’re talking about twenty-plus years ago, but I remember hosting and organising meetings of over a thousand students in DCU and out of a body of 3,000 having a fraternal and democratic debate which was actually complimented by the Irish Catholic, and delivering an overwhelming majority – you know, only a handful of people against the idea of the right to abortion information.
Not a whole lot has changed in twenty years.
Isn’t it sickening that here we are twenty-plus years later and not a shred of legislation has been brought in to deal with that situation? And I think that’s something that can be a talking point and will be something we will most definitely be putting pressure on the government to deliver this time round. So yeah, I would be a strong campaigner for women’s rights in that sense. I hope to use my position as a TD to do that, you know, because there are very few women really represented in the Dail and there’s very few of an alternative viewpoint. Those that are there a little bit of the decoration at the back you know; nodding in the right direction.
Are you religious?
No. I’ve been an atheist for a long time.
Would you describe yourself as ‘spiritual’?
No. I’m, I suppose, a human. I still believe in humanity. I believe in the material world.
Do you read your horoscope?
No (laughs), nothing like that, sorry.
Mick Wallace recently called for the legalisation of prostitution. Do you agree?
I heard Mick talking about it, and I was glad to hear the issues raised, to be honest, because I think, like many things in Irish society, it’s a reality. There are many more women involved in prostitution than even show up on any statistics; it’s rampant in all the working class communities and middle class ones. I think there does need to be serious discussion in society about how this issue is addressed; whether I’d go so far as to say it should be legalised, I don’t know, but I very much welcome that it is being addressed. They certainly shouldn’t be criminalised for it and their health and well being should be protected. But I was very glad to hear Mick saying that because these are the things that society needs to begin a discussion on.
There’s some legislation proposed that will make it a crime for a man to pay for sex. Would you support that legislation?
I haven’t seen it and I don’t know the details of it so I probably couldn’t comment on it. I don’t know.
You mentioned a daughter earlier. Are you married?
I’m married. Family is generally out of bounds in these things (laughs). I don’t think my personal life is relevant.
Well, it’s relevant enough. You’re an elected representative. People like to know these things.
Okay, yes, I am married and I have one daughter and my husband has another daughter. So there’s three to four people living in our house at various times – and that’s the extent of what I’ll be saying about them.
What’s your opinion on the shocking lack of unmarried/separated fathers’ rights in this country?
That’s a really interesting question. I have met many men who I believe have been seriously hard done by by the courts and by the system, as it is set up at the moment. I think there are people in the campaigns for fathers’ rights who maybe don’t help the cause because of the way in which they conduct themselves, but I do think there is a problem there, absolutely, that needs to be articulated. The fault of that is not women. The fault of that is with the way in which the system is organised. Clearly, it’s not in the interest of those men, it’s not in the interests of their children, and ultimately I don’t think it’s in the interest of their former partners either. But it’s an issue which this society has to take responsibility for and be a bit more grown-up about a lot of what’s going on. It’s a big problem and I’ve fought the cause, if you like, of a number of men in those situations – and undoubtedly we will be again. It does seem to be that people are afraid of taking up this cause, that if you were to acknowledge that the role of fathers, or men, has been not addressed adequately, that somehow you’re attacking women by doing that. I don’t buy that argument, absolutely not. I would be quite open to championing these issues.
Of course, there are a lot of women who are quite happy to use the law to their own advantage – and the law is totally to their advantage.
It is, and it needs to be addressed, there’s no doubt. I know many people who have been the victim of the way in which the system has been organised, and I think it’s wrong for people in elected positions to shy away from it because it’s somehow deemed to be less PC to articulate some of these things. I don’t feel like that. I think there’s a very serious issue there that needs to be addressed. 
Where do you stand on drug legalisation?
There’s a huge amount of hypocrisy and nonsense spoken about in relation to drugs in Ireland. The reality is that nicotine and alcohol are, by far, the drugs that do the biggest damage. No question or doubt about that. It’s unsustainable to have a situation where huge numbers of people are engaged in smoking cannabis on a regular basis, and that activity is criminalised. It’s just unsustainable and I do think it needs to be addressed. Now, there has to be a balance. There are people who would say that cannabis is a stepping stone to other harder drugs and they would be some people involved at the coal face of dealing with the communities who are most affected by drug use and that point has to be taken on board. But it’s quite clear that prohibition doesn’t work. It’s quite clear that it’s in the hands of the criminals and there is an argument there for legalising it. In the context, I would think of a campaign to try and not have people depending on drugs, you know, I’m not in favour of people using drugs. My biggest drug of choice for decades was cigarettes. I was a hardened smoker for decades, 50 cigarettes a day, and these are the drugs that do the most harm. They cost the health service more, alcohol is of course the main one as well. Yeah, I think there’s a huge amount of hypocrisy. Maybe we will have an opportunity in the course of this Dail to advance some of those issues because most ordinary people know it’s it’s utter hypocrisy and nonsense.
Have you ever used any illegal drugs?
Any illegal drugs? I would’ve smoked cannabis once, well, on one occasion, like more than one day in Holland, in my student years.
Anything other than cannabis?
Honestly, I have never ever taken any other drugs (laughs). It’s not really from any moralistic point of view or anything. I never came into it. I suppose in the circles I moved in, other people weren’t doing it so I just never did; probably as a student, I probably drank too much like everyone else, you know, I certainly smoked too much. And I would never criticise anyone for it because I was a 40-50 a day person.
Was it difficult to give up smoking?
I did the Alan Carr Easy Way to Stop Smoking because I’d had pleurisy a couple of times and my sister sent me on the course. I only did it to shut her up. I honestly didn’t think I would stop and I had no interest in stopping because I love cigarettes – and I would love one now. Love one! But no it wasn’t difficult. The course kind of teaches you how it’s all in your head and that it’s completely psychological.
You were jailed in 2003 because of your involvement in the anti-bin-tax campaign.
Yeah, for a month. 
How was that experience?
It was very shocking. That was in 2003 and it was unusual for community or protest people, trade unionists or community activists, to end up in prison for protesting. Obviously, it’s become more common since then with Corrib and all that but the sentence was quite shocking. We certainly didn’t expect when we were in the court that Friday that we’d be going to Mountjoy for a month. We had a bag packed. We thought, maybe, on a bad day, we might get a weekend (laughs). So it was a little bit traumatic. Overall, I found it a really beneficial experience. Now, I could’ve had that beneficial experience in a week or two weeks, but that said, since that experience I’ve taken an interest, I suppose, in conditions in the prisons, and prisoners’ rights and conditions, and how the criminal justice system in Ireland is organised.
How did you get on with your fellow inmates?
I didn’t meet a single person in there who was bereft of all humanity. There were some people in for serious offenses, a handful of people. In the 1980s, there were two or three people, women, in prison in Ireland. Now they’re massively overcrowded, nearly 150 where there’s only space for about 85. Practically all of those people are victims of poverty, mental health issues and drugs, and it’s a revolving door and it’s just crazy. I mean, you’re spending huge amounts of money to keep these people in a vicious circle when a fraction of that money invested when they were younger in education, or in assistance with abuse, would enable them to live a great life. And to see women in there cut off from their children and stuff like that, it was an eye-opener for me.
Of course, the women’s prison is a lot more comfortable than the men’s one.
It is. But there are only two women’s prisons. There’s only Limerick – which is horrific, it’s in the Dark Ages. It can take 10 women. And the Dóchas Centre in Mountjoy, which has accommodation for 85. But the female population now is about 150, so there’s chronic overcrowding. You have very, very small rooms – the idea of putting a bunk bed in those rooms which I believe they’ve done – and the stress…
Didn’t the governor of Dóchas quit recently?
That’s right, yeah, Governor McMahon resigned and obviously John Lonergan resigned as well, primarily over overcrowding but in the men’s prison you still have slopping out. Imagine that! I mean, years ago when they put forward this Thornton Hall project, which the government are now reviewing, they said they couldn’t put in-cell sanitation in Mountjoy. Now they say they can – of course they can, do you know what I mean? Of course they could have then, but they’ve left people slopping out… and the stress and the aggravation and the overcrowding; it is barbaric… So it’s given me a real insight. It made me realise that prison is purely for the benefit of the people outside, absolutely.
How do you mean?
Anybody who comes into contact with a prison system, it doesn’t do anything for them. And most of the people in prison on an annual basis are there for fines and stuff. It’s ludicrous. Obviously some of those things are being addressed but yeah, it was a long time to be cut off. It’s very hard to explain to people outside how you feel when you’re completely at the mercy of someone else, where you haven’t got the ability to say, ‘Oh, I’m going to ring somebody now’, or ‘I’m going to do something now’. You have to get clearance for that. Now, not for everything. But to feel that you’re at the mercy of some establishment is very traumatic.
Did you see much drug use while you were imprisoned?
When I was there I was probably the only one who wasn’t on drugs, either illegal or prescribed medication, which there seemed to be a lot of. It’s a sort of a real emphasis on keeping people [sedated]. People every night lined up for prescription medication, sleeping tablets; now, I understand why that would be. But it’s obviously creating a real culture of dependency and keeping people sedate, you know, rather than dealing with the real issues and the real problems that landed them in there – which are, in the main, abuse, ill health, mental health problems, and, you know, drugs and poverty. Crazy.
What kind of music do you like?
I’ve a very eclectic music taste. My favourite band were The Smiths; I’m a real die hard Morrissey fan. But I do like a range of music. I like classical music. I actually like country music. The kids have me listening to a lot of the sort of Spin-type music, and that sort of stuff. But you know if I was sent to a desert island with just a couple of Morrissey and Smiths CDs, I’d be happy. But it was really weird. My car got broken into at the weekend. This is really freaky; window smashed, wallet robbed, load of CDs, Morrissey, Sting, and the kids’ CDs – and in the middle of it, Andrea Bocelli. The wallet was robbed and the Andrea Bocelli CD was robbed - and all the other CDs were left there (laughs). Weird, isn’t it? Yeah, so I’m still trying to figure that one out. So, yeah, quite eclectic but Morrissey would be the man.
How often do you socialise?
I don’t generally. I relax by reading, but I really don’t go out. I don’t have much time.
What kind of books do you read?
Anything that’s going. I like novels. I’m reading a book at the moment, The Lost Battles, about the rivalry between Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo. I like old Italian history and old imperial Rome and that type of stuff. But I really like novels as well – Patrick McCabe or Philip Roth. You’re going to ask me a title now and my memory is terrible! (laughs) I’d read some political stuff obviously, as well. To switch off and relax, reading is absolutely up there. 
Will you welcome the Queen’s visit?
No. I’d imagine we’ll probably be protesting. I think it’s a bit galling for an awful lot of people in Ireland to see the amount of money being spent on the visit when low paid civil servants are in panic as to how they’re going to make ends meet. People can’t meet their mortgages, people on social welfare, and we’re spending millions on this visit. Also from the point of view of the role of the British Army, and she is head of the British Army in Afghanistan, in Iraq and so on. Yeah, we would be opposed to the visit on that basis.
How about Obama’s visit?
Much the same. I mean, obviously the role that US imperialism is playing in those wars in relation to the situation in Libya and so on. I think there will be an awful lot of Irish people who will welcome Obama. Clearly a of people who voted for him had a genuine hope that he was going to represent something different. Obviously that hasn’t been the case. He’s very good at packaging the idea of difference, but the content is no different at all. And there’s been economic devastation across America.  
A bit like what’s just happened over here…
Very similar. I think when you look at it as well, the idea that you would sell a message for hope and change and then get a government that’s not only not different but is nearly worse than the one that’s gone out, that’s carrying on where they left off, and putting the boot in even more. The only difference in Ireland is that the sheen is coming off even quicker because it’s absolutely unbelievable what this government are doing. I think the role of the Labour Party, in particular, who seem to be lining-up in the frontline of attack, to tell public servants and people in the semi-states that they have to pay the price and there’s nothing they can do. Unbelievable. When the message less than two months ago was completely different, “Ah yeah, that’s disgraceful what that outgoing government are doing.” It’s disgusting, really.
Do you think we should burn the bondholders? 
Absolutely! You know, there’s going to be a default. The sums aren’t there. There’s no way the Irish population can pay this money. You wonder whether the strategy is just to get as much money as possible back into the hands of the German, French and to a lesser extent, British banks and bondholders, who loaned recklessly. To get the money before the default happens because there’s no way on earth that those terms could be met. I think it’s actually criminal.
They’ll almost certainly try to strip this country of its assets.
Yeah. We’re going to be asked to sell off everything. People’s living standards, people who are just about making ends meet, are going to be absolutely decimated. And for what? To have a situation whereby next year the interest repayments are going to be more than the education budget – 50% of our GDP is going to pay interest back. It’s absolutely ludicrous. I mean, we’ve seen some of these bondholders and hedge fund operators kind of going, “God lads, we can’t believe our luck. What is this country? Who are these people who would guarantee our losses like this? We’re not used to being treated like this.” What I found particularly nauseating is this idea being put about that the EU/IMF are some saviours for us, when they’re just doing it to protect their own interest. It’s disgusting. But I actually think the difference now is that the room for manoeuvring for ordinary people and for working families is just going. So people can’t. A lot of people really hoped the election would deliver change and they were using their way of protesting through the election. I think now people have realised that’s not going to work, and people will have to be more active and more vocal.
Would you say that the likes of Cowen, Lenihan and Ahern are guilty of economic treason?
They’re guilty of representing the interests of the wealthy in Irish society but you know, that’s what they’ve all done (laughs). John Bruton and Dick Spring and Labour and Kenny and Gilmore and all the rest, they all prop up a system that is basically run in the interests of those who own and control the wealth. Ordinary people pay the price of that, so it’s capitalism. Call it economic treason, but it’s capitalism.
Do you think the Irish people themselves have been a bit toothless?
Yeah, you know it’s funny, isn’t it? Because that’s something you hear all the time. When we were in the airport, in work at Aer Lingus, every time there was a strike and every time there was a dispute, it was like, “ah, we should be more like the French.” But there seemed to be a sort of disconnect that the ‘we’ they were talking about was them as well, do you know what I mean? I was like, “that means you” (laughs). I think the reason for that has been the boom, and the shock of the boom ending. You know, there was a certain growth in living standards, but certainly not this nonsense that all boats were lifted. They weren’t. And a lot of people stayed in very difficult situations. I suppose, people who lost their jobs a year ago had their redundancy, but the redundancy is running out now. They had jobseekers’ benefit. That’s running out if their partner’s working, so that’s gone. It’s beginning to bite. It’s getting into the essentials where there was maybe a little bit of fat in the system. I wouldn’t say the Irish people are to blame. I just think it’s human nature to hope that there’s an easier solution. Who wants to be out protesting and all the rest of it? You know, everyone wants their children to be better off than they were, to have the ability to travel, enjoy their leisure time, have a job, all that sort of stuff. The system now is not accommodating those main needs so up to that, everyone looked for the easy way out. If you can vote for change, well, sure why not? Obviously, that didn’t work so (laughs) go on to plan B.
Are you optimistic about this country’s future?
Yeah, I am. I have an absolute and total belief in ordinary people’s ability to struggle and find a way forward. But the anger is there. I blame the union leaders, I blame the media for pedalling the notion that there is no alternative. I think if people saw a clear alternative, I think they would mobilise and go out and engage in activities. I’m very optimistic actually on that basis. But things will only get better if people take the situation into their own hands. And that can happen very quickly. I mean, let’s face it, people in Egypt, “Ah you know, you’ll never get rid of Mubarek, you’ll never get rid of these fellas” and like that (snaps fingers), they were gone. I think we’re heading for explosive times in Ireland and I don’t believe the Irish are placid or easygoing or whatever. I think they will enter this stage of history and they’ll just be just as determined as people in Egypt or Tunisia or whatever.
Do you blog or use Twitter or Facebook?
No, I’m an absolute heretic. I’m really bad in terms of technology. I’m a notebook and biro person. I reluctantly have a mobile phone, obviously, because you can’t do without one. I reluctantly have a mobile phone that I can do emails on. And that’s about it. I can do Word and write letters on the computer. I can do emails and occasionally go onto the internet but eh, all the other things you mentioned, don’t even know what they are. Facebook, never looked at it, blogging, tweeting, twittering, not a clue. Total technological heretic.
What do you think should happen to those cops in Mayo who were caught on tape joking about raping protesters?
Well, they have been shifted to desk duty. Should they be sacked? I’m not sure, to be honest. Obviously, what they did was reprehensible. I think it really shocked people all over the country, but it was reflective of the tone that was set from those above them. And the demonisation of protesters and de-humanising of people in Mayo. There is a siege mentality down there. Protesters were considered to be fair game for any sort of abuse, so they felt cocky and confident enough to make absolutely outrageous remarks like that. And it’s abuse of power. But it’s probably widespread in the police force.
Can you give instances?
I’m aware of many situations where young people, men and women, are treated to very unacceptable behavior in the back of a police car or in a police station regularly on a Friday or a Saturday night. It’s not just women who’ve been told that they’ll be raped, it’s young men as well, or what would be done to them, and getting a few clatters and all the rest of it. That’s par for the course from what I can see. I don’t think guards join the force to do that, but clearly that’s the tone that is set. I think guards who oppose that type of behaviour find it very difficult to speak out because the culture is that they protect their own. I’d be more concerned about looking at that whole culture, and breaking that up, rather than saying ‘those absolute…’ Whatever their colleagues are calling them. Let’s not call them anything: ‘eejits’ is too nice a word. The fact that these things are being handled by the Garda Ombudsman – a toothless organisation which can’t recommend any action being taken at all – is wrong. I’d much prefer to see a full independent enquiry into the guards’ role of policing in Corrib and the role of the private security firms employed there as well. There needs to be, and it should be an opportunity for saying, “Why isn’t there the video cameras in the cells and all of these things that we’re supposed to have?” Because people have died in custody, and there’s never been a satisfactory answer on a lot of those things. To me, it’s clear that there’s a culture in there that has to be broken up and that’s the key thing. The whole role of policing needs to be opened up to examination.
Do you think Ireland got totally screwed on the deal done by Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern in relation to the Corrib gas and oil fields?
Now, there’s economic treason for you. That is one of the biggest scandals ever. But it’s not too late. They can renegotiate a lot of the deals. The fact that there isn’t a cent of royalties coming to Ireland, that Statoil and the Norwegian government get a slice of it, and we’re going to get nothing. Like, we’re not even getting a discount price when the gas and stuff comes aboard. But that can still be sorted out… but yeah, because that was the ethos of the day, wasn’t it? That’s what they did; give away our natural resources and then you know, expect people to live on a pittance and deal with social welfare cuts while billions, hundreds of billions of our resources, are out there which could be utilised to tackle a lot of these problems. And they say they’ve no money and they can’t do it? Scandalous.
Do you think that Irish politics is inherently corrupt?
I think the links between big business and the main establishment of parties is that they’re absolutely interwoven. People are representing those who fund them and, you know, he who pays the piper and all that sort of stuff. The Lowry situation exposed it quite well. Obviously, Michael Lowry has serious questions to answer, as has Denis O’Brien, but so have other people. I find it amazing that the Moriarty tribunal investigated that – and proper order – but what about Jim Mitchell? Sitting there, paid advisor to Denis O’Brien… and nobody seems to think that’s a problem or the fact that Denis O’Brien and Esat got exclusive rights to all of the Garda stations in the whole country, that they could put up any mast they liked without any planning permission and the State’s company at the time, Eircell, had to go through planning permission and was chasing behind all the time. Now, that was the source of Denis O’Brien’s wealth, which he then went on with his hundreds of millions – which the Irish tax payer didn’t get a cent on – to go and build an empire in the Caribbean where he earned billions. But that’s capitalism. Is it corrupt? Corruption and capitalism, it’s hand in glove.