Jack O’Connor was dubbed during the height of the recession by certain quarters of the media and his political foes as the "Most Dangerous Man in Ireland". Nonetheless, he is probably relieved when our interview finally wraps up, after being grilled for close to three hours. Not only is he exhausted from talking for so long, but the affable Dubliner confesses that he wasn’t expecting so many questions out of leftfield. “Those were tough question you asked me,” he jokes, as the conversation winds down.

In fairness, the President of SIPTU – the largest trade union in the country – gives as good as he gets. He certainly isn’t afraid to pull his punches – and he gets a lot off his chest during this lively exchange with Hot Press.

No matter what side of the fence you’re sitting on in Irish political life, there’s no denying that Jack O’Connor has played a pivotal role for many years now. With the trade union negotiations with the government about to kick off, Jack will again be one of the key players, with the responsibility of thrashing out a pay deal for workers that will dramatically shape the country’s economic future, for the next decade at least.

Jack plans to step down from his SIPTU role in January 2018, but we certainly won’t be hearing the last of him. He’s just taken up the role as chairperson of the Labour Party, who are determined to fight their way back to a central role in Irish life.

Jason O’Toole: What was your childhood like?

Jack O’Connor: My early childhood was very happy – but my father suffered a massive heart attack when I was 12 and he suffered a number of others over subsequent years. He was unable to work from then on. That was pretty difficult. I was 22 when my father died. I wasn’t old enough to appreciate him properly.

Did you do your Leaving Cert?

I went out to work when I was 15. That wasn’t entirely due to economic circumstances, although they probably weren’t good. I deeply resented the oppressive environment of the Christian Brothers – and I wasn’t staying any longer than my Inter Cert.

Were you beaten much by the Christian Brothers?

No, I wasn’t. I didn’t suffer too much in that respect. But I saw other people beaten.

Did your father have any influence on your decision to get involved in the trade union movement?

I remember my father talking about Labour leaders when I was very young. He thought Brendan Corish was a good Labour leader and a good man for working people. And I asked him, ‘How would you know a good Labour leader?’ He said, ‘I don’t know. But I know how you’d know a bad one! One that the Independent newspaper said anything good about!’ That won’t do me much good with the Independent newspapers! (laughs).

It’s unusual for a young child to have an interest in politics.

I went to a small, two-teacher primary school, where Thomas Ashe had taught. The principal of the school encouraged me greatly to be interested in equality and the exciting prospect of a better world.

Why the trade union movement rather than elected politics?

I became involved on the political left when I was 16. I became absorbed in trade union work. And subsequently came to understand that democracy is much more complex than simply casting a vote every five years. I was very active in the Labour Party. I always saw it as an extension of trade unionism. I probably didn’t see myself as being the kind of personality that people would like to elect.

Why not?

People involved in the trade union movement very often – if they’re true to what they believe – have to tell people things that they don’t want to hear. They have to persuade people to compromise and accept the best deal that is gettable – and that doesn’t lend itself to the approach one needs to be elected, which is more telling people what they want to hear.

Would you have seen yourself as a shy character back then?

Yes, that’s true. I was terribly shy when I was young. But that would not have prevented me from contesting elections. I was always able to overcome shyness to do the work.

You met your wife Paula through the trade union…

Yes, Paula came to work in the Workers’ Union of Ireland in the spring of 1981.

Was it love at first sight for you?

It was very much, yes.

How did you muster up the nerve to ask her out?

I had to summon up a lot of courage to do that, yeah.

When did you get married?

In May of 1984 – which reminds me the anniversary is coming up: I’d forgotten about it! We have three children. My son is 30; and the girls are 29 and 20.

Does your shyness manifest itself in your stutter?

No. I don’t attribute that to shyness. I attribute it more to collecting my thoughts, and testing them in my head for their flaws before I utter them.

It’s something that developed later in life, right?

Yeah, that’s right.

Do you think it’s stress-related?

It might be, yeah. I don’t find dealing with the media easy. I’ve always found it challenging and stressful. But not simply because it’s dealing with the media: it’s also about trying to speak to other constituencies than my own without alienating my own constituency.

Did you find it embarrassing having to deal with your stutter in public?

No. I wasn’t that conscious of it until people began to point it out to me. For a long time I wouldn’t have been aware of it at all. You’re the only journalist to ever ask me about it. I don’t have any problem with that. It’s the way I am. It’s often been pointed out to me that I have a stutter. People encourage me not to stutter and so on, but it’s really about thinking through the answers before I utter them, principally.

It’s surprising that I’m the first journalist to ever ask you about it.

Yeah. I suppose people are probably reluctant to ask. But you are the first, yeah. And I don’t have a problem with you asking me. I’m not offended by the question at all.

The media has given you a hard time over the years. Does it upset you at all?

No. Giving the class nature of some of the media, I would be concerned if they were giving me a good time: I would be examining my conscience!

What about the argument that union leaders are divorced from reality with their big salaries and big houses?

I’m accused of that very often by people who grew up with silver spoons in their mouths and had the luxury of being feather-bedded through university and so on. I can be taught nothing about hardship or the problems of being poor. None of them did the things that I did: I was out picking peas for five shillings a day when I was ten-years-old, when most of them were in kindergarten. I would acknowledge, of course, that as one grows older and one, in the case of myself, has a very good salary, it is possible to become comfortable – not just physically but intellectually. But I’m continuously engaged in union meetings with members. I’m also active in the Labour Party and knocking at doors. One’s outlook and ideas and perception of the world are formed by one’s entire lived experience – and arguably to a greater degree by one’s earlier years than later on. And none of them can tell me anything about hardship if you apply it to the context of my entire life.

Do you feel your salary is justified?

When I became an officer of the union, my salary was 18.6% less than the people who went before me as a result of a campaign I personally ran throughout the 1990s. And then we took all the pay cuts that applied in public services, although we were never paid benchmarking during the good years. And my salary is now – pro-rata, allowing for inflation – about 44% less than the salary was before I became an officer of the union. And then pension has been cut by 40% over recent years, as a result of steps that are necessary to keep the pension scheme alive without applying additional cost to the members of the union.
The salary I’m on is €108,385, which is about where it be would across the not-for-profit sector. I am the president of the biggest trade union in the country. It would be considerably less than that would apply in the private sector and, indeed, in the public sector. It’s not for me to judge whether it’s appropriate. It’s not decided by me. It’s decided by the National Executive Council of the Union, which is an elected body. I’m often accused of being paid three times that – and I’m often accused of not taking pay cuts! I’ve outlined for you the history of the salary I’m paid and the pension I hope to receive in a few years’ time.

You must’ve been annoyed when one of the papers tried to make a huge deal about you having a big house?

I don’t have a big house! I think they were sorely disappointed in what they found when they came down. I think they reported my house as being worth about €400,000 then – and the only beneficiaries of that were my neighbours who saw the value of their houses being enhanced so much within a day! But they still portrayed it as a big house and it’s not. We built a standard size bungalow on a site provided by my wife’s father, who was a smaller farmer. I was annoyed – and it’s one of the few times I was annoyed personally – because I don’t think it’s fair to interfere with people’s families. In fairness, apart from that, my family has never been focused on by the media.

You once walked off the Vincent Browne show. Some commentators implied it was a publicity stunt.

If it was a publicity stunt it would’ve been better executed. I raised the question in response to the line of questioning as to whether the workers in that TV station had their collective bargaining rights recognised and he replied by saying, ‘I don’t think so. But I don’t agree with it’. And then immediately I realised that the question was going to be asked of me in Liberty Hall the next day, ‘If that was the case what was I doing there in the first place?’ I was in a situation where I had to leave. It happened spontaneously. Circumstances have changed since that night in that, thanks to the Labour Party; we now have legislation that entitles people to join a trade union.

If Vincent Browne rang you up and asked you to go on the show next week, would you do it?

I wouldn’t be opposed to it in principle. I don’t bear any hostility whatsoever towards Vincent Browne. And I regretted that the row had to be with him. To be fair to him, he has played – for the most part – a very progressive role for a long time now.

What are your thoughts on the Joan Burton and Jobstown protest controversy?

There’s a great deal of misinformation. For example, it’s being promulgated that Joan Burton was prosecuting this action, which is utterly untrue: this is a criminal case that’s being prosecuted by the State arising from a report that was submitted to the DPP. The whole incident, and the subsequent case, haven’t done any of the protagonists any good. It’s a pity that it couldn’t have just been forgotten about. There is a necessity to recognise and respect people’s right to protest and with every right we have to acknowledge that it should be accompanied by obligations. I understand very well how these things develop. It was unfortunate. I hope that no one goes to jail.

Where did it all go wrong for Labour?

They chose instead of going into Opposition to go into government in the clear knowledge that they were risking the very existence of the party in order to prevent Fine Gael from enjoying absolute power and implementing the brutal agenda that was outlined in their election manifesto. I distinctly recall that we went out to UCD to vote on the Programme for Government one very bright Sunday morning and I remember coming out of the conference hall, saying that we would come back with five seats!

Why were you saying that?

If you go into government in circumstances which are the worst in the history of the State, where the fiscal policy of the country is in the hands of the Troika and you’re outnumbered by two to one by the most conservative party in the State, you’re going to suffer enormously. You could well be wiped out and the Labour Party – not for the first time in the history of Ireland – chose to take that route in the clear knowledge of what the implications would be, rather than leave Fine Gael an absolute monopoly of power.

Was it an error to go into government?

We managed to prevent people from a far worse fate. It’s important to remember that against the background of the biggest economic collapse in any developed country in the world – and despite the fact that they were outnumbered more than two to one and despite the fact that in 2010 and 2011 we had the highest deficit in all of Europe, higher even than Greece – the Labour Party managed to preserve the integrity of our social welfare system.

What else did the party achieve in government?

They prevented the sell-off of State assets that was in the Fine Gael manifesto. They prevented outsourcing of public service jobs on an industrial scale. And they prevented the dismantling of the mechanisms that protect the pay and terms of employment of the 2 to 300,000 workers who are most vulnerable in the economy. They enacted legislation to strengthen the collective bargaining rights – albeit not remotely sufficiently – to the degree that the National Trade Union Confederation acknowledges that Ireland was the only country in the world that legislated for strengthening collective bargaining rights against the background of the global economic collapse. And yet the perception is that the Labour Party betrayed the people. We betrayed no one.

In 2012 you confessed to me that you were “quite frustrated” by Labour in government…

There are things that I would’ve done differently. And there are some things I certainly wouldn’t attempt to justify. I would never have followed the policy of liquating my identity into the government. But they did so because to attempt to develop a narrative that was agonistic to Fine Gael to reflect the struggle in which they were engaged every day in Cabinet would have undermined the cohesion of the government at a moment where the very sovereignty and economic independence of the country was an issue. And you must remember that this is a party that in 1918 agreed not to contest the election in order to give Sinn Féin a clear run so as not to divide the country. A party that sacrificed itself then and has sacrificed itself a number of times since would not do otherwise.

What other mistakes did Labour make?

The biggest mistake – if it doesn’t sound too arrogant – is that they didn’t listen to what people such as myself were telling them. But they didn’t have very much space to manoeuvre. They should have insisted on maintaining the identity of the party. And they should have told the public more about the struggles that they were engaged in with Fine Gael inside the Cabinet.

The optics didn’t look good when Ruari Quinn signed a declaration outside Trinity College that he wouldn’t bring in third level fees. And then he seemed to do a volte face.

That’s not what happened! The Labour Party contested the 2011 election as an independent political party and it laid out a different approach to addressing the crisis than the prevailing orthodoxy of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil and the Troika. Labour sought a mandate on the basis of that manifesto – they didn’t get the mandate. Less than one in 500 people voted for them. They couldn’t do the commitments that they had made.

Was it a mistake for Eamon Gilmore to make that pre-election promise that it would be ‘Labour’s Way or Frankfurt’s Way’.

I didn’t agree with that. I have a different way of setting things out.

As chairperson of Labour, what can you do to restore public confidence in the party?

I don’t have a silver bullet! And the public perception – which is as outlined in your question earlier – is not going to go away. And that is partly attributable, by the way, to the fact that within government, the party chose to avoid the narrative that would convey the reality of life with Fine Gael. And they chose instead to maintain the cohesion of the government in the interest of the very survival of the country itself.

How long will it take to rebuild the party?

I see things differently. I don’t support and I’m not a member of the Labour Party in the way someone would support or be a member of a football club. My aspiration is to achieve an egalitarian society. It’s the aspiration I’ve lived by all my life, since I was 15 or 16. I very clearly see that we can achieve more progress between now and the centenary of the foundation of the State towards the realisation of that egalitarian agenda than has ever been achieved over any such period. I know it will not be achieved by telling people what they want to hear. I know there will have to be hard decisions. I know one thing will have to be prioritised over another. We can’t tell everyone what they want to hear at the same time.

What’s your prediction for Labour in the next election?

I’m not going to make predictions. But ultimately the Labour Party on its own will not achieve the realisation of the potential of the situation that exists between now and the Centenary of the foundation of the State.

So, what needs to be done?

We will have to reach out to people who share our worldview. We have to make approaches to the people who are in the Social Democratic Party and other independent social democrats and democratic socialists. We will have to allow our record in government to be scrutinised. And, by the way, if it’s scrutinised objectively it will stand up an awful lot better than the way it’s being perceived. We have to acknowledge where we were wrong. And we will have to be prepared to acknowledge too that some of the people who left Labour and who were alienated by the party probably weren’t treated as well as they should’ve been. I earnestly look forward to the day when all of the democratic socialists and the social democrats in Ireland – irrespective of whether they be in the Labour Party or Democratic Party or otherwise independently on the left – come together to develop a common programme.

So you’re calling for a united front on the Left?

I would like to see everyone who is a democratic socialist or a social democrat and who sees themselves as being in the tradition of Connolly and Larkin and egalitarianism facing up to their responsibilities and burying their differences, which is as much due to personalities as policies. Personalities are unimportant in the context of history. Unless we derive that essential catalyst – to shift the fulcrum of politics in Ireland to the left – then the opportunities that present over the next five years will be squandered on popular tax cuts, which for the most part will benefit the rich. And we’ll still end up in 2022 with large sections of our population homeless, with an inadequate health service and with a struggling education system. And that would be a tragedy.

Would you favour doing a deal with Sinn Féin?

The first responsibility that everyone who considers themselves to be a democratic socialist and social democrat has is to talk to each other before we begin to talk to people in the nationalist tradition.

But would you rule it out?

I don’t see that as the issue that presents itself immediately. There are very good people on the left of Sinn Féin who probably should be in the Labour Party. And for one reason or another they’re not. I see very good people in Sinn Féin generally: but I don’t think we should be talking to people outside the tradition of the social democrat and democratic socialist movement until we talk to each other.

Do you feel Labour should rule out the possibility of ever going into coalition Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael again?

I think that answering that question shifts the emphasis back from what I see as the priority. I don’t see any difference between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.

Would you consider running now for the Dail?

Labour has very good candidates in every constituency. I don’t think that’s going to arise: I would see my responsibility as chairman of Connolly’s party, as being the support of all the people who are about to be selected. We’ve lots of good people and I wouldn’t see myself getting in any of their way.

Would you consider running for the Seanad?

No, I wouldn’t. I think that there are people who would have more to offer in the Seanad than I would. As chair of the Labour Party, I have enough of a platform to seek to influence the agenda. I don’t think I need to be seeking election to public office.

Would you consider running for the Presidency?

Ah, no, I’m not in that league at all. We’re most fortunate to have Michael D. Higgins as President.

Do you think Michael D. Higgins should run for a second term?

I don’t see why he shouldn’t. Michael D. Higgins has discharged the role with immense distinction and I think that we would be most fortunate if he were to choose to run again. It would be a matter for him and his family. But I would certainly – enthusiastically – support him if he were to choose to do so.

Would you see Alan Kelly as a possible future party leader?

There will be future leaders of the Labour Party. I’m sure Alan Kelly will contest and will command considerable support and may well become the leader. I have a good relationship with Alan Kelly. I’m certainly not an anti-Alan Kelly person.

Would Labour like to have a secular Ireland and take religion out of the constitution?

Our aspiration is that Ireland would be secular and socialist in the context of a social Europe.

So, you wouldn’t be religious yourself?

I don’t want to make an issue of my beliefs or the absence of them because I think that’s a matter for every individual. I wouldn’t want a headline saying what I am, but, no, I don’t hold any religious beliefs. But I respect everyone who does. I don’t join in the ritualistic condemnation of everyone in religious life, because I recognise the enormous sacrifices that the great majority of those people made and the enormous amount of good that they do. I recognise that the great majority of them are better people than many of those who are criticising them. But I do come from the perspective of an egalitarian socialist. I don’t hold any religious view. Actually, it’s the first time I’ve ever said that in public because I wouldn’t want anyone to be influenced by my view on the matter.

Do you have any thoughts about where we come from?

We as a human race – assuming that we survive Trump and the threats to the environment which global capitalism is inflicting – have a long way to go to understand the world in which we live. And it’s probably too early by several thousand years to be arriving at a definitive conclusion as to the nature of our existence. But on the basis of the evidence, as I see it at the minute, I don’t believe there’s an afterlife.

You’re not a fan of Donald Trump…

It’s a tragedy that we seem to be reliving history. We’ve seen not dissimilar things back in the 1940s in Europe. It is frightening. But it is attributable as it was in the 1930s in Europe to the failure of the left to prioritise the interests of society above its own sectarian interests. The failure of the left to extend its thinking beyond what we were against and to outline a vision of a future that would actually work. And until the left does that, this threat to humanity that is epitomised in Trump and Le Pen and (Geert) Wilders and Yildirim In Turkey will continue to prosper to the detriment of people and society and ultimately to threaten human existence itself.

But you can’t see it getting as bad as it was in the 1930s with the Nazis.

The great irony of it is: the majority of the Germans didn’t elect the Nazis. And they certainly didn’t contest the 1933 election on the basis that they were going to establish gas chambers! Hopefully you’re right; I like to think that you’re right. But xenophobic nationalism has nothing to offer ultimately other than a cul-de-sac. And we in the Labour movement and on the serious left utterly reject the choice that is being presented today in Europe, as being between unbridled free market globalisation on the one hand and xenophobic nationalism and neo-fascism on the other.

Should Ireland follow the UK’s example with Brexit?

Brexit is utterly nonsensical and absurd. It is totally irrational and it will ultimately – I think it’s already beginning to happen – be detrimental to the working people and the people in public services who voted for it. And probably ultimately to all people of the UK, Ireland and Europe. The EU has been the most successful peace process in history. It has been responsible for – in Western Europe at least – the most sustained period of peace and the greatest enhancement of the living standards of the human population from 1957 until 2008, of any such period in the entire history of humanity. And what we need to do is build a Europe that recognises our inter-dependence and our independence simultaneously, on the basis of sustainable, progressive, realistic social democratic policies.

What’s your position on the Eighth Amendment?

The Eighth Amendment should never have been inserted in the Constitution. It should be repealed and I believe that decisions on the matters that are covered by it should be left to the elected representatives in our legislature, especially given the very democratic nature of our electoral system, which is one of the most democratic in the world. I don’t think it should be outlined in the Constitution at all. It’s high time that we repealed it.

So you’re pro-choice?

I’m not in favour of a blank cheque on abortion, but we have the capacity among our numbers to elect the people to legislate in a balanced way, that takes account of all the aspects of the issues that people are presented with on the subject.

Do you feel it’s a disgrace that Irish women have to take a Ryanair flight to England if they are raped or get pregnant by incest?

I do, yes.

What are your thoughts on legalising or decriminalising drugs?

I’m not entirely opposed to it, but I would need to see more evidence to support the case before I would go that far.

What about marijuana for medicinal purposes?

There is a strong case for that, yes, as long as there’s a good body of medical evidence to support it.

And what about injection centres?

I’m probably not in the place where I’d go out campaigning for it, but I would tend to be in favour of piloting that, and examining how it might contribute to alleviating the misery associated with drug abuse.

Have you ever tried marijuana?

I haven’t, no.

What’s your thoughts on legalising euthanasia?

I’m not in a place where I would favour it at this time. Obviously, there are circumstances where people are suffering unnecessarily and in hopeless situations. Subject to very rigorous protections, I’m open to persuasion on it.

What do you hope to achieve in the upcoming negotiations with the government over public service pay?

We have to achieve what the majority of people want: the end of the impact of the cuts. And for lower-paid people we have to achieve some improvement in pay to reflect what’s been happening in good employment in the private sector. We all know it’s going to be a very difficult negotiation. I hope we can reach an accommodation.

If the negotiations don’t go well is there a possibility of strike action?

Obviously there is that possibility. If it weren’t for that possibility there wouldn’t be any negotiations. I’ve been in the ironic position of dealing with some of your colleagues in the media that criticise me for not organising riots in response to pay cuts and, at the same time, criticise me for seeking pay restoration. We should be aspiring to public services of the highest European standards, given the potential of our economy. We have to recognise that people in the public service have to be well paid.

What about the view that it’s morally wrong for teachers to go on strike?

No. The right to withdraw labour is a fundamental right in international treaties and conventions. I don’t think there’s any point in recognising it as a fundamental right and then depriving people of the right to exercise it. All workers should have the right to withdraw labour.

Do you feel the government should increase PRSI on those earning six figure salaries?

I am very firmly of the view that people on six figure salaries should contribute more. Is PRSI the best vehicle or USC? I wouldn’t be particularly hung up on one or the other.

I understand that you have a very difficult relationship with Minister Shane Ross?

No, I don’t actually. I don’t have any relationship with Shane Ross. I completely avoided dealing with him. I didn’t issue any statements in the Bus Éireann dispute because I was concerned that it would be represented as some attempt on my part to settle scores with Minister Ross. I very deliberately avoided doing that. I have no relationship with him one way or the other – and I don’t propose to establish any.

You’re stepping down from SIPTU in January: any regrets?

I had aspirations to achieve a stronger, more powerful trade union movement. We in the leadership of SIPTU – it wasn’t just me – were unable to persuade enough people in the leadership of the other unions to do the things that we believed were necessary. Equally, we haven’t managed to get the constitutional change that’s necessary in this country to provide an entitlement to collective bargaining rights.

And what about your legacy?

I don’t care at all what people say about me. I was in a position of leadership in the biggest trade union in the country for a considerable time, in the Congress of Trade Unions, during some of the worst years in the history of the movement.

I think that given the alternatives that we were presented with back when the collapse occurred, we have taken people through the thing as well as could have been done and better than the case in the other programmed countries, and many of the countries in Europe that were suffering economic difficulties.

The trade union movement is in a position to articulate a progressive agenda in the context of a growing economy between now and the Centenary of the foundation of the State. We’re about to enter a negotiation, which I expect will result in regaining most of the ground – if not all of it – for most of the people who work in the public service.