The U2 Covers - No. 28: 'U2: Boys To Men'

Well when you've conquered the world, what else can the biggest band on the planet do except go into space? BONO and LARRY discuss matters cosmic and personal with Olaf Tyaransen

It's shortly after 4.30 on a wet and wintry Tuesday afternoon and, in the comfortably spacious environs of the upstairs lounge of U2's Quayside Hanover Studios, I am shaking like a leaf. Waiting my turn to interview Bono and Larry Mullen about the band's tenth studio album All That You Can't Leave Behind, it's not that I'm particularly nervous - just that my balls have already been frozen off. Today is not a beautiful day. It's Dublin in October, so how could it possibly be?

I'm still soaked from the rain, feeling a flu coming on - and more than a little anxious that the time I've been allocated won't be nearly enough to cover the myriad questions with which I've come prepared. About all that U2 can't leave behind, about all that U2 have going on at the moment, about all that lies ahead of U2 over the coming months, as the machine cranks up again and the biggest rock band in the world - well, there or thereabouts - goes out on the stump to promote The Most Important Album They Have Ever Made. In fairness, five hours wouldn't be enough to cover it all - and that ain't in the schedule today!

"Would you like a cup of coffee, Olaf?" whispers the stylishly attired and always polite Adam Clayton, when he steps into the room and notices the blue of my cheeks. "Why are you whispering?" I whisper back with a grateful nod. "MTV are filming in the next room," he explains, before nipping off to the kitchen to fetch me a much-needed hot beverage.

Today is a busy promotional day for the band - the room is full of PR girls, the BBC have just left, MTV are here now, Edge is downstairs talking to Rolling Stone on the telephone, and RTE's Uaneen Fitzsimons is due any minute. There's a charge in the air, a frisson of big-band excitement that it's impossible not to be sucked into.

Already, the first single off the album - the surprisingly straightforward but still infectiously catchy 'Beautiful Day' - has crashlanded into the British charts at Number One. The new album is being released in a fortnight and the word on the industry grapevine is that it's going to be huge. There's a feeling that this record may catapult U2 right back to the dizzy heights achieved by The Joshua Tree, when they dominated the charts and shifted over 20 million units. The buzz is that this is a record that takes U2 back to their roots - and which will reeconnect them to their original audience. Now, following two gruelling years in the studio, U2 are finally coming out to play and switching back into media mode.

"How long have you had the album?" Adam asks, when he returns. I tell him I've had it for about four days and immediately he's full of questions. What songs did I particularly like? What feel did I get off it? I tell him that I like some tracks better than others but I suspect it's a grower. It's also groovier, tauter, more economic and not quite as 'big' sounding as I'd expected.

When I mention that I found a few of the more echoing guitar riffs reminiscent of very early U2 material, he chuckles: "Well spotted! Edge dug out The Explorer - this really old guitar of his - for some of the tracks. He hadn't played it since 1980 or something."

He sits down and chats, showing me the artwork for the album sleeve (featuring some very tasty black and white Anton Corbjin airport shots) and contemplating the hectic promotional tour they're about to embark upon (Paris on Thursday, Los Angeles on Saturday, New York the next week, and lots more world travelling besides).

"Sounds quite gruelling," I remark. "Well, I'm kind of looking forward to it," he smiles. "But then, I've been stuck in a studio for the last two years. It'll be nice to get out for a bit."

A rather tired looking Bono and a shockingly freshfaced Larry finally finish their MTV duties and jointly combat-swish into the room. They're equally relaxed and friendly, old pros at the promotional game but also genuinely warm and engaging.

Before she goes to interview Edge and Adam, Bono warmly congratulates Uaneen - who's just arrived - on her radio show, rails for a while about the NME's poisonous review of 'Beautiful Day' (which tastelessly suggests that Mark Chapman should be released from prison and immediately dispatched to Dublin to do a John Lennon number on the singer) and generally works the room the way a rock star should - talking to everybody.

He's interested, entertaining, alert, challenging. Ah fuck it, he's Bono - you know what he's like! Larry, true to form, is quieter and more softly spoken, but no less polite and interested for that.

And, introductions and pleasantries over, the clock starts ticking NOW!

OLAF TYARANSEN: So, this is where you've been hanging out for the last two years?

BONO: We've been hanging around here for the last five years! We did some singing in France but most of the recording for the album was done here. I've been having difficulties with my voice for the last few years and I thought it was smoking, so I quit cigarettes. But I now think that there's some kind of gas in the air or something. You see all the digging and construction work that's going on around this area? It's one of the most poisoned stretches of land in Dublin and I think there's all sorts of dangerous chemical shit in the air. So, for the sake of my voice, I just got out of Dublin when they started doing that, and we went to Nice.

Larry, you've got a place in France as well, don't you?

LARRY: I do - I've got a house just outside Nice. The band that lives together stays together! (laughs).

Does that constant closeness cause any strain?

LARRY: Well, we don't live in each other's shadows but it makes sense that we're all away at the same time. You know, because there's four of us, if somebody decides to go on a two-week break to a different country it means you can't do anything if someone suddenly has an idea. So it just makes sense that we're all around the same place at the same time.

It's a little unusual for a bunch of guys who've been together as long as U2 have to still be able to spend that much time together.

LARRY: It is unusual and it can be a little trying, because a break is never really a break with us. But that's what we do. That's how we work.

In a very real sense, you're still hanging out with your mates from school more than twenty years on. Do you ever find yourselves still acting like schoolboys?

LARRY: Well, it's an odd thing after this length of time. We still beat each other up occasionally. Obviously there's respect, but there are limits. We all have to take a battering sometimes! (laughs).

What? A physical one?

LARRY: Well, I didn't mean it like that - though there have been occasions (smiles). You know, we've all got to do our shit in the studio, we've all got to pull our weight. And it's very hard in the studio sometimes. It can get really tiring. We're all making music but we're not virtuosos, so it kinda takes us longer than it takes the average band. It takes a lot out of us. And sometimes sparks fly. Danny [Lanois] and Brian [Eno] are good around that - they know when to speak up, but they also know when to just stay outta the way.

Was it good to be working with Eno and Lanois again?

LARRY: It's always good to work with them. Brian brings a very different thing to U2 - he thinks very differently from the rest of us. He gets onto those keyboards and he just takes songs in directions you wouldn't expect. But he's not there all the time. We're always delighted when he goes away because we know when he comes back, he'll be back with some more goodies (rubs hands together gleefully). Danny just stays in there and brings a very different touch to it. So we're pushing one way, they're pushing other ways - and the results are always interesting. A lot of tension!

It must have made for a serious change of vibe from the making of the Pop album though, having a core of just six people working in the studio? No party animals like Howie B or Nellee Hooper being bad influences on you!

BONO: Actually, with Nellee, the very first thing we did for the Pop album was we went out and bought a van and turned it into a disco bus - filled it with couches and woofers and (suddenly grins broadly and breaks out in a dodgy Jamaican accent) BEECHES IN DA FRONT! BEECHES IN DA BACK! I DIDN'T SEE NO MICROPHONE! YOU TELL IM DAT MAN'S A TIFF!! HEES GUILTEEE!

Em, sorry Bono, but I'm losing you there. What's with the Jamaican accent?

LARRY: Don't mind him. He's just been watching far too much Ali G!

BONO: The man's a comic genius! (laughs) Seriously though, we went out a lot during the making of Pop but we went out a lot because we were enjoying going out. And even at home there was a bit of club culture - there was just a lot of music in that period coming from the dance end of things. We were just loving it - loving being alive and, um, 'living it large' I think is the expression. And we wanted to capture that feeling on a record - because that was the life we were having. Though I think we may have captured more of the hangover than the party

Was alcohol the only thing being used? Pop struck me as being very E'd up at the start and very spliffed out at the end. And Howie has a bit of a rep as a dope smoker!

BONO: Well if I ever smoked anything stronger than tobacco I wouldn't say it to you - or anybody!! (laughs) But no - some great times but some great hangovers as well.

Did the partying affect the work at all?

BONO: A little bit, in terms of deadlines. I wish we'd had a little bit more time to finish 'Discotheque'. I think that could've been a really amazing song. It should've connected on more levels. I mean, I think it is an amazing song but I think it really could've connected in America, had we had longer to finish it - because they didn't know the culture it was coming from. It connected over here and it connected in the UK because people already knew.

Rave has really started to take off in the States recently though. As has ecstasy.

BONO: We were in Kansas on the Popmart Tour and we went out and there was a full-on rave going on. We went there with William Burroughs

You went raving with William Burroughs!?

BONO: Yeah, well you wouldn't expect Burroughs to be grooving around - and he wasn't! But he brought us there and it was just an astonishing thing to see in the middle of white America - people really losing it on techno. Generally, Americans have been spoiled by black music. And so they find techno very white - so I think it'll get groovier and funkier before it really goes off in the States. But it was happening bigtime over here in '96 and '97 and that was great.

Did you bring people like Howie and Nellee in to work with you on the Pop album because - coming from a more rock & roll tradition - you somehow weren't confident that you could properly understand dance culture on your own?

BONO: Well, you're right. The company the band keep is obviously an influence. I think it's a different discipline and so you want some disciples around - because you're not even one yet. You know, you're still just on the edge of the crowd. So yeah, that's probably true. In the end though, we were about to make a full-on dance club record and we backed out of it halfway through, because dance music - with the exception of David Holmes - and club culture doesn't really like the sound of bass and drums. You know, bass and drums played in real time.

Was Gavin Friday around at all for the making of All That You Can't Leave Behind?

BONO: Gavin's always around. People who have success - for reasons I still can't quite figure out - seem to rid the room of all argument. It's a really astonishing thing, but you see it, and you often wonder why somebody who blew your head when you were a kid has just released a really crap record. You just think 'did nobody tell them?' I mean, it's crazy. And we've never released a crap record. We've released experimental records or whatever, but we've never released a crap record. That's because we've got people around us. The band, first of all. And then people like Gavin and Guggi. And the people around me - Simon Carmody, Jim Sheridan and so on.

Lots of no-men then?

Bono: We've a lot of no-men. Probably far too many (smiles).

Why did you decide to go back to more basic rock & roll on this album?

BONO: It just felt right for now. That was the sound we wanted to hear and that was the sound we thought other people might want to hear. That din of choices in dance music and just the very democracy of that music had kind of worn people down a bit. It was like there was almost too much to choose from. And we thought also that the sound of a rock band had worn itself out a little bit too. So we thought, 'well what is it then? What is it that you wanna hear?' It's the question we always ask ourselves. And we just wanted to hear songs - songs that made you wanna get out of bed, as opposed to songs that made you wanna get under the bed (laughs).

This back to roots approach must have really pleased you, Larry. I know you hated Passengers because you didn't get to play enough drums.

LARRY: Well I didn't really hate Passengers. It was difficult, maybe, because it was just slightly beyond me. I mean, I can see where that album fits in now. At the time, my hope for it was that it would be soundtracks to movies where I could actually see the visuals. But I wasn't able to see the big picture - that's a different story, but I think the only way you get to make an album like All That You Can't Leave Behind is by doing all those other things. Because you're never gonna get to this place if you haven't visited all the other places along the way. You know, we did a lot of experimentation on Achtung Baby and Zooropa, had a lot of fun with guys like Nellee and Howie B doing Passengers and Pop and so on. And these things were all really good experiences. It was great, we learnt a lot from all of them.

But now you've stripped most of what you learnt away. There's very little technology or effects on the album.

BONO: That's really the theory behind the whole album. What happens if you reduce possibilities?

If there's a power cut

BONO: Yeah, that's right - a power cut to the main frame. Well we still have it but it's only the absolutely necessary stuff, like the drum machine. It opens the album. You know, 'U2 back to roots' and suddenly here's du-du-du-du (spits drum machine noise) coming out at you. But that is our roots. Or part of our roots. But we kept it to a minimum.

Lyrically, the new songs are all quite universally themed - you seem to be mostly writing about love, loss, life and the pursuit of some kind of happiness in the chaos of the modern world. Is there a sense that you make your big political statements outside of music now?

BONO: Maybe that's what it is. Hmmm, that's an interesting thought. I've found an audience to shout at - and they're not the record buying public! They're just prime ministers, popes and presidential candidates (erupts into laughter). Jesus! You may have just sorted it out there!

Actually, I was being serious. There aren't really any big issues being dealt with in the new songs.

BONO: I am serious! Because, you know, people have a lot in them - a lot of anger sometimes. Well, I can really only speak for myself, but there's always been a rage in me. And maybe I have found a way of (pauses). I can't live with acquiescence. I can't make peace with myself or the world. I just can't. To me, it's like rolling over. So, in doing things like Jubilee 2000, I do feel better for actually feeling that I'm getting my hands around the throat of something I care about, which may allow me in other areas of my life not to be at '10' all the time.

Are you often at '10'? You recently told Q magazine that you had a bit of a temper on you.

BONO: I don't know why I said that to him. There must have been a really rude waiter (laughs).

I also noticed you having a minor altercation with a member of the audience in the Popmart Live From Mexico City video. Do you often get into scraps with the audience?

BONO: I've had a go at lots of people in the crowd over the years, I think it's fair to say. Often it wasn't just white flags that got carried into the crowd, there was a lot of baggage and sometimes people would just spark you off. I even remember when we played Trinity here, when we were kids, going into the crowd and sometimes you'd just stick the boot in. (Looks at Larry and shrugs, laughing) Well, you would, wouldn't ye? It's always been a very physical thing for me - making music. Being on a stage I've always felt a little like a trapped animal. I've never been one to stand on a stage in front of a microphone and, you know, there's a good fella, just sing the song. But I'm working up to that!

Surely the whole world's now your stage - whether you're singing or not? You must feel trapped quite a lot of the time.

BONO: Well, actually I'm talking to NASA at the moment about that little problem (laughs). And they're going to help me sort it. Larry, who's that guy we heard about - the one who wants to be the first non-astronaut in space? Stephen King?

LARRY: That's the horror writer. Hawking?

BONO: No, it's not Stephen Hawking. It's not even a Stephen, in fact. Hmm, it'll come to me (pauses). Actually, there's kind of a space theme to this album.

A space theme?

BONO: Making this record it was coming up to the Millennium and they were kind of replaying the whole century on TV. They were showing shots of the Apollo moon landing one night and, I'm sure this goes for a lot of people, but they're the ones when I was a child that really showed me the size of the Earth - how tiny it was and how big the universe was and how full of possibilities and danger and potential - you know, all of these things. And there's a little bit of it on a lot of songs on the album. It just kind of bleeds in.

Where exactly?

BONO: Like in the middle of 'Beautiful Day' - in this song about a guy who loses everything but has never felt better - you have this hard cut to all the stuff the astronauts spotted from orbit. The Bedouin fires, the Great Wall of China, the Grand Canyon, all those things. And I do like that idea of going from the domestic to the extra-terrestrial.

That's just one example, Bono.

BONO: It's there in 'In A Little While' as well. (Sings and taps a rhythm on the table) 'Man dreams one day to fly/man takes a rocketship into the sky/you think he lives on a star/that's dying in the night/and follows in the trail/of a scatter of light/turn it on turn it on/oh yeah.' Just going from space flight to that, it's a trick. But it works in my house (laughs).

You turned forty earlier this year. Do you think you're improving as a singer with age?

BONO: Yeah, I think I've come into something as a singer. I always felt that I could sing live but I never liked the sound of my voice on record. But on this one I felt better. I had a few things happen that made me think about taking singing more seriously. I had a couple of conversations with Bjvrk and it gave me a lot of faith that she believes in me as a singer. And PJ Harvey. So talking to the two girls. And the death of Jeff Buckley. That just made me think about the voice and what it can do if you're prepared not to lie to yourself.

Did you know Buckley well?

BONO: I only met him once. In New York a few years ago. I hate the word 'sweet' but he had a sweetness in the true sense of the word. An alive-ness.

I see that Edge co-wrote two of the new songs with you.

BONO: Well, Edge has been editor for a long time. It used to be really boring being the lyricist in U2 because no-one could give a shit, including the producers. And so a song like 'Bad' - which was written on the microphone - you might've said to the guy who wrote that, 'you're really onto something there - you should finish that'. Ok? Now, the fact that I didn't has certainly pissed me off more and more as the years have gone by. About the material. So Edge, I think, just kind of got interested as a way of, you know, 'this could be good, let's see where this goes'. And we started writing songs together outside of the band. And he's always been an editor, he's been good to work with. But occasionally his editing strays into more real and substantial songwriting, and, when it does, I just put his name on it.

In 'Peace On Earth', you've borrowed that line about hope and history not rhyming from Seamus Heaney. I know you knew Burroughs and Ginsberg, and people like Salman Rushdie and William Gibson are friends. Do you talk to more conventional writers about your songwriting?

BONO: Not really. But I do like the company of writers. They're like actors. They're fascinated to see the words get up from the page and do a run and a jump onto television or onto stage (laughs). They're interested in that process. And I'm interested in their discipline, because it takes a lot of discipline, I'm sure, to do what you're doing. I never had any of that - sitting at a desk all day. That's just really hard. And I know that. I never did that. I did a different kind of hard. Years later I would meet writers and they'd say to me, "Oh, that opening lyric in 'Where The Streets Have No Name' is brilliant", and I'd be going "fuck off!" - I'd be climbing under the table in embarrassment. I think it's one of the most banal couplets in the history of rock! But they'd say, "no, it's the idea, it's what you're getting at. This idea of the Other Place".

Surely it's not just about the words with songs. It's also about the emotion with which they're sung?

BONO: For a songwriter it is, that's right. And it's also the less heady and the more straight to the heart they go (pauses). Em, I can't mention any names but some people really love certain 'writerly' type songwriters, but then you find out that they don't care about them as much as they respect them. So I do think that, in a way, by not spending time on the lyrics they became more direct, became more un-interfered with. I'm kind of at peace with that idea. With that decade. Nearly. But then in the 90's I started to write a bit more. And now I'm very interested in language because the words will do what I say now and I won't let them get too brainy or too dumb. I know enough now to get out of the way of them.

Speaking of the Nineties, whatever happened to the second Best Of album you were due to release last Christmas?

LARRY: We put it on hold. Because we couldn't do both things, we couldn't concentrate on finishing this record if we had to promote a different record. There's always a lot of time-consuming stuff when you're doing promotion.

Do you enjoy doing the promotion?

LARRY: I have to say that it's a very hard part. Because you've just come out of the studio, you've just made something and you're not really quite sure exactly what it is you've done. So you're just coming to grips with that and suddenly loads of people are asking you questions about it.

Can doing interviews be a good way of figuring it all out?

BONO: If you're really lucky. If you're sitting around and you manage to have an actual conversation - then yes. You know, I don't take interviews lightly. For me, you're stepping out into the unknown. If you're gonna ask yourself some hard questions - and why should you? why would you? - then that's tough enough. And if you're being asked the same questions by an idiot, it's very hard for somebody like me, who's a little bit twitchy sometimes, to go through that. And I try and be charming to cover that up.

When I met you outside you were giving out about the NME single review and, to be honest, I was quite surprised that you were upset about it.

BONO: The one that said Mark Chapman should be released and given a plane ticket to Dublin? Actually he made me laugh out loud. He did. That was funny. But I don't mean that. I'll tell you what really offends me. Sometimes writers put their words into your mouth and that always makes me feel very violated. It's being presented as what you said, except that you didn't say it. People are reading it as your words, except they're not your words. And it's usually really awful, really bland shit. You're risking that every time you do an interview. Off the record (proceeds to tell me about two incidents involving journalists from major music magazines who've cruelly twisted his words in the past).

Do you read all of your press?

BONO: No. Just can't. There's just too much of it (laughs). Actually, take a look at this. Now, if you were vain - which, of course, I'm not - this might upset you (picks up a copy of The Observer from the table and unfolds it to reveal a truly terrible full page picture of himself standing outside the White House with an American congressman). Look at the state of that! I'd want Mark Chapman released to go after this fucking guy!

Joking apart, there's quite a serious side to that as well though. I know Adam had trouble with a Canadian stalker a few years ago. Is personal security a worrying issue?

BONO: There are weird people out there. There really are. And you just have to live your life, on one level, like that's not true, and on another level, like they're just around the next corner.

Do you have bodyguards?

BONO: I don't need it. I don't feel I need it anyway. I've security at my house, though.

How about you Larry?

LARRY: If you lived in America, there's no doubt that you'd have to have it. Somewhere like Los Angeles, stalking happens a lot. But I don't think Ireland's that kind of place. And when you're living here and your friends are here and your family's here, I mean it's hard enough without having people standing guard around you. I'm a drummer though, so I wouldn't need it.

Free man of the city or not, can you walk around the streets of Dublin without being hassled?

BONO: Yeah. I really can. I've kind of gotten away with it. I've no problem letting people down any more. I've no problem with the idea of manners. I like people who carry themselves with some sense of respect - respect for themselves and respect for others. I don't have to convince anyone now that I have all those things, so if people are rude to me then I've absolutely no problem being rude back. Before, I used to. So that used to make me violent (laughs). You know, I'd go from trying to politely explain the situation to eventual all out war. In fact, one of my last memorable evenings with Bill Graham was like that (tells lengthy anecdote about a night out with the late hotpress journalist, which ended in fisticuffs when an overly anxious musician attempted to write the name of his band on Bono's hand in a Dublin nightclub).

Do you miss Bill?

BONO: I do. And I miss that (referring to Bill's calmness throughout the nightclub incident). Ideas are like melody lines to me - you know, whether it's one in economics, in business, in music. He was exactly the same. They were like melodies to him. I learnt that from him. He could be as excited about a new thought, as some new coat.

LARRY: He was a great ally, somebody we knew for a very long time. Somebody we knew from the beginning. He was incredibly valuable - impossible to replace. Especially as things go on. He was always around, always interested. I used to see him in Howth quite a lot. I'd run into him in the pub and he'd always be full of questions and ideas.

BONO: He just had a big gorgeous generous mouth on him. Big fucking burgundy lips! We used to call him Burgundy Lips - that was our nickname for him when we were kids. He introduced us to Paul, he introduced us to lots of people. We really owe him.

Have any new Irish bands tickled your fancy recently?

BONO: I like that band JJ72. I heard the whole album recently and I heard that single quite a few times. They've just got so much. And you can hear their songs through the wall - you know, from the other room. Which is always a really good sign. You don't have to sit in the sweet spot of the stereo to figure it out. He has the most beautiful howl since Frank Black. You feel it's coming from a deep place. But I don't know. Could be he just got lucky with the songs (laughs).

LARRY: I heard that band Relish recently. I think they're from Downpatrick or somewhere. I was just blown away by them. You could spot a lot of influences from a lot of different people in there but their songwriting is so great - amazing.

Do you make a point of listening to new Irish music?

LARRY: Well we all get stuff, you know. We get sent loads of things. Actually, somebody else who blew me away was this real Dublin rapper. Damien Damien?

Dempsey - They Don't Teach This Shit In School was the album.

LARRY: I heard that and that just blew me away. Just really good. So we pick up stuff. People are always sending us stuff but I still spend a fortune on records. We all spend vast sums of money. Cos you wanna hear what's out there. And you're not only listening to the music, you're listening to the producers as well. You know, there are people who make records. Listen to Eminem or Dr. Dre's album. It's all so well produced and so well constructed. These people are all doing really great stuff. And it's any type of music, there are no rules. You just write the songs. That's the challenge now - that you're competing with all of those rappers, all of those popsters, all of those boy bands. Which is cool.

Do you think things are getting better for Irish bands these days?

BONO: Between Uaneen Fitzsimons and John Kelly and Dave Fanning - there's a lot of good people on the radio now. Tom Dunne is another one. There's a very high standard of radio here now. It's creating a different kind of climate - a climate where risk is okay. That's what's gone wrong in the UK - risk is not okay any more over there. And no great things can be accomplished without risk. Jimi Hendrix wouldn't have set fire to his guitar if there was somebody around going (affects extremely annoying voice) 'THAT'S STUUUPID!' Cos any thing, any action, depending on your point of view, can be inspirational or not.

Looking back, what's the biggest risk you feel you've ever taken in your career?

BONO: Em, there's a few shudders I can think of.

The Rattle & Hum movie?

BONO: Didn't feel risky. I think Em, a few things come to mind, really. The mullet! I think the very boldness of those early records against the fiercest of stares from, just, disinterested cynical people. I think that's the thing the band are proudest of, that we stuck it out against all of that. For me, personally, it was very hard to stand up at the Brits and pour cold water into their warm beer. You know, talking about starving children at the cocktail party. I got a serious hiding in the papers the next day for it.

Does bad press bother you? Surely not at this stage?

BONO: It bothered me that time because I thought the idea is bigger than the personality here, and this kind of cynicism is stupid because it actually harms the project. You wanna be fanning the flames of this idea. If this idea can get off the ground, if you can help it then fine - but don't get in the way of it because this is not as simple as, 'I don't like your T-shirt!'

I met Damon Albarn just a couple of weeks ago and he was still trying to dig himself out of that hole. He had been talking about the need for education - you know, the need to explain what Islam is and who are these people who live in Africa. Turn them into people! I was saying, 'Absolutely, but they're actually starving to death right now, so what's the point in educating dead people?' And he said, 'No - you need to educate people in Britain'. I'm saying, 'Yeah, but they're still starving in Africa!!' Funny one (shakes his head despairingly).

BONO: I speak to him all the time. Yeah. He’s been through a lot and he’s bearing up to the responsibility of a new little girl in his life and, you know, there’s no better man – ironically – to fill in the shoes of her natural father than him. I’m just his biggest fan. I really am. You know, he’s my friend but I’m definitely still his fan. I think we’re lucky to live near him. Near somebody like Bob Geldof.

Did you know Paula Yates well?

BONO: Yeah. She was wild in the most peculiar of ways. For instance, she had a really high IQ but she spent her entire time trying to come off as a dizzy blonde. She had some very serious ideas about life and sent her children to Sunday school, but you could never have serious conversations with her about it. She was the importance of not being earnest.

I first bumped into her when she was about 17 and it was like two opposites colliding. And I ducked her for years ’cos I just thought ‘whoa – where’s she coming from?’ And then, years later, I really discovered this thing that people who’ve had a lot of pain in their lives are not in pubs talking about it. It’s people who haven’t – but are in the queue for some! (laughs) – that you meet in pubs talking about it. It’s a funny old thing that.

What do you think should happen to Charlie Haughey? You know him, Larry, don’t you?

LARRY: It’s a difficult one. I don’t know. I’ve got very mixed feelings because I never knew him very well, but I do know him. I think, on the one hand, that there’s a case to be answered. And on the other hand, if what they’re saying in the papers is true – that he’s dying of cancer – I think they should just leave him alone. I veer more towards leaving him alone.

There’s always going to be a scapegoat and he’s been blamed for a lot of things, but I think there are a lot of people responsible. When the truth – the whole truth – comes out, I don’t think that he’ll appear quite as black as he does at the moment. I’ve got no facts to base my opinion on, but it’s just my feeling. He’s an old rogue and, in true Irish tradition, people admire him for that. He got away with it. And people want to get away with things. So who’s responsible for that?

What do you think, Bono?

BONO: (Back doing his Ali G impersonation) HEES GOT THE GOLD! HEES GOT THE BEECHES! I DUNNO IF HEES GUILTEE!!. DAT MON NEVER SEEN NO MICROPHONE!! HEES GOT THE GOLD! BEECHES IN THE BACK! BEECHES IN THE BACK! HEES EITHER A DJ OR A RAPPER BUT DAT MON NEVER SEEN NO MICROPHONE!! (Bursts into laughter) Have you seen that scene in Ali G? It’s amazing. He’s an amazing comic.

Would you go on his show?

BONO: Would I? He asked me, but I’m a little too wise for that. As somebody once said to me, you know just where you’re gonna get it! And they’d be right! (laughs) No, but seriously, I’d never pass judgement on Charlie Haughey. I owe him – we owe him – a lot. Not just things like Temple Bar, but things like the tax breaks for artists that allowed us, or made it easier for us, to continue living here. So we owe him a lot – even as a band.

But there’s a rot that’s been in this country and I don’t know whether he’s part of it or not but, if he is, there has to be justice and it has to be seen to be done. Putting kids into Mountjoy prison for breaking into a car or for stealing CD’s from Tower Records when business people or politicians have been robbing the till to the extent that seems to have been going around and getting away with it – that just can’t work. I know that much. The whole thing starts to stink and no-one then wants to pay taxes or anything like that.

Do you pay taxes here?

BONO: We pay a fortune in taxes, I might add. We don’t mind. I mean, obviously I don’t wanna pay more than I have to – and I’ll try not to! – but I don’t mind paying the tax that we have to. And I don’t think you can ask people to pay PRSI, because that’s where it really hurts. You’ve got people doing regular jobs and other people are running free at the top of the icing on the cake – me or U2 included – and it’s not on.

Returning to All That You Can’t Leave Behind, can you give me a one word description of the mood of this album?

LARRY: I don’t think there is one word. I would hate to describe anything we do in one word.

BONO: Well if anyone could – you could!

LARRY: Alright then – ‘SHITE!’ (laughs) No, I like this record. I like the fact that we can take it out and play it live. It’s very much a simple idea. It’s about songs and I’m really looking forward to playing those songs. We’ve done rehearsals already – took the songs out of the studio and onto the stage and played them – and they sounded great. And that’s important, if you’re going to haul your ass off around the world playing them for months at a time.

The tour starts next March in Miami?

LARRY: Well, at the moment it starts in March. But things are still a little up in the air.

Bono – the album in a word please.

BONO: Em, I’d like to think it’s true. It rings true. So that’s the word.

LARRY: Actually Bono, that’s two words. But ‘rings true’ is pretty accurate I think.