Wall That You Can’t Leave Behind

What prompted him to take the journey along the wall?
“Curiosity,” replies Thomas. “And ignorance and devilment – and rambling. All of those things combined. I suppose I suddenly thought, ‘I don’t know enough about this, and I have all these preconceptions which are probably wrong.’ There’s a history of English subversion in rambling and I liked that approach, to ramble with a sense of discovery, and treating people as equals. Half of the stuff we arranged, and we worked with interpreters, fixers, community groups, the UN, all sorts of people. Then with the rest of the stuff, it was an enormous amount of busking and encountering people, and it’s fascinating.”
Interestingly, Thomas remarks that his support for the Palestinian cause wavered, following the huge number of suicide bombings during the Second Intifada in the early part of the last decade.
“The suicide bombs of the Second Intifada were what switched me off,” recalls Thomas. “I didn’t want to do anything for the Palestinian cause, I didn’t care. I’m quite honest about this. One month saw 156 Israelis killed. That put me off, and Operation Cast Lead engaged me again. What’s interesting is that all the Israelis remembered the bombs, and there was a palpable sense of relief that the wall had gone up. But the thing is, the wall doesn’t work – the number of people who have crossed illegally is incredible.”
How has it affected security?
“I don’t think it has affected security,” replies Thomas. “Lots of Israelis say, ‘The wall stopped the suicide bombings’, but if you talk to Palestinians, they say, ‘There was a ceasefire.’ If you press them they go, ‘Well, it was because it wasn’t worth paying the price of the military intervention that the suicide bombings caused.’ And if you press the Israelis, they concede that the military intervention did have an effect. Also, they admit that if people want to get through, they will do. Actually, there are a lot of people who say, ‘If it all kicks off again, it won’t stop everything. It can’t do.’
“So I would maintain that you haven’t stopped the suicide bombers. In addition, the wall isn’t finished; there are bits of it where there are huge gaps. Down in the south, for example, I walked through twice. There’s a real paradox – parts of the wall are absolutely draconian, and at other parts, there’s nothing there.”
Thomas had previous experience of visiting conflict-torn areas, and even stayed at the Europa Hotel in Belfast, which was at one point considered to be the most bombed hotel in Europe (“although I don’t think they’ve put the plaque up yet,” he quips). What was the most surprising aspect of his Middle Eastern trip?
“I didn’t expect the Israeli activists to be so moral to the core,” responds Thomas. “The ex-soldiers who go and work on the West Bank are absolutely outstanding, and there also Palestinian ex-guerillas who have formed a group called Combatants for Peace. These are fighters who are making the journey that the countries should be making. To see so many Palestinians talking about non-violent resistance and discussing how you build a struggle internationally was really exciting, and surprising.
“But actually the thing that surprised me most was how beautiful the place was. It absolutely sings, you look at this landscape that is so beautiful. There are moments when you just want to stand there and lose yourself in it.”
Was there any sense that the movement towards non-violent resistance was growing?
“I think it is,” replies Thomas. “All along the wall, there are communities who are organising and struggling. They’ve been tearing the fence down, but hey, it’s on their land. The amount of land that’s been lost is incredible – nearly nine percent of the West Bank has gone to the wall. I interviewed the IDF professors who came up with the idea, I went out with the Border Patrol, I talked to settlers’ leaders, I talked to the guy who did the route of the wall, and one of the most interesting things is this obsession with keeping Israel an ethnic state.
“The man who designed the concept of the wall and taught demographics to Sharon and Netanyahu and all of these people, is quite a famous guy called Professor Arnon Sofer. He coined the quaint little term, ‘The Palestinian womb is a demographic bomb.’”
Does Mark have any sympathy for the concept of armed struggle in general?
“Yeah,” he answers. “I know it sounds dreadfully old-fashioned – and I say this as someone who attempted to get the British government in the dock over the Iraq War – but I thought the military intervention in Sierra Leone was bloody marvellous. I’m involved in a project there, which is an arts centre in a refugee camp. Which obviously Richard Littlejohn would have a field day with! But actually it’s what people want. These kids want to make films and music about their experience. And if we take the idea of non-intervention, that’s morally vacuous. You have to intervene to stop a greater violence occurring, that’s common sense.”
But – to play devil’s advocate for a moment – wasn’t that the logic behind the Iraq War?
“I think it was part of the excuse, but I don’t think it was part of the logic,” counters Mark. “If it was about preventing greater violence, then questions arise as to, ‘Well, why did you arm this man? Why did your sanctions policy give him more power?’ Instead of having a country that could trade with the world, the sanctions meant that trade had to go through the Ba’athist regime, so Saddam Hussein was in charge of the baskets of food that people got. It was just insanity.”
Finally, I mention that following the killing of a Hamas leader in Dubai last year – widely attributed to the Israeli security forces – the assassins were found to have been in possession of forged Irish passports.
“And British ones,” notes Mark. “I was there when all that was unfolding. It was very funny, whenever we went through a checkpoint and they went, ‘Passport’, I’d say, ‘You are gonna give that back?’”

Mark Thomas plays The Academy, Dublin on March 10.