Finian McGrath opens up about grief, government formation and Rory Gallagher

I've been wandering the corridors of the Dáil on-and-off for close to a decade, since I started doing political interviews. One of the regular sights outside our national parliament was Finian McGrath TD lingering at the plinth.

There were occasions it felt he was a permanent fixture, with a fag in one hand and a constant smile. He'd chatter with whoever happened to be passing.
First elected as an independent TD for Dublin North-Central in 2002, Finian's decision to enter politics was heavily influenced by the fact that both he and his wife Anne worked as teachers in disadvantaged areas: they saw the result of State neglect first-hand. But it was his wife's battle with cancer and his second daughter Clíodhna's disability - she was born with Down Syndrome - that finally convinced him to run for office and campaign on health issues.
Finian's other passion is music. He loves talking about it just as much as politics. Indeed, three years after he was first elected, his profile grew considerably when he appeared as a contestant on RTÉ's You're A Star 'celebrity' special and released a charity single in aid of Down Syndrome Ireland, which included cover versions of 'Bad, Bad Leroy Browne' and 'Angels We Have Heard On High'.
I first interviewed the Galway-born politician in January 2010. It was two months after his wife had died, at the tragically young age of 53, leaving him and his two daughters, Caoimhe and Clíodhna, devastated. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since - including McGrath's recent appointment as 'super junior' Minister in the Department of Health, with responsibility for disabilities.
While the 63-year-old still ventures out to the plinth for a quiet cigarette, you'll spot him there less frequently these days, as most of his time is occupied by his new role.
In the past, Finian would happily stand around and talk to you for ages, puffing away. He may be under pressure nowadays, but he's still affable and talkative, even if one eye is on the clock...

Jason O'Toole: Growing up, am I right to say that you were a bit wild?
Finian McGrath: Wild? I suppose I was. I was always a bit of a messer. I was always up to some divilment. I wasn't a great man for concentrating on the books. I was always trying to form groups and bands. Even as a teen, we had various folk and trad groups. (Laughs) I love music. I'm very biased towards guitars. I have particular heroes, like Rory Gallagher. I love folk and I love rock and I love trad as well. My new son-in-law, Niall, is a brilliant box player and I jam with him sometimes when I'm out in his house. I love jazzing up some of his jigs and reels and putting a bit of bump into them.
You mentioned you got into trouble as a student...
I was the guy in the class who was always getting caught by the teacher. Friends of mine would crack the joke and I'd be the guy that would laugh and get caught and thrown out of class. Or, I'd be the guy caught down the back of the shed having the fag. We used to do these cross-country races and after about two miles of a seven mile run, I'd be organising how we'd take a break and have a smoke and then find a short cut to the finish line (laughs).
You would've been part of the so-called free love generation. How important was chasing women and sex to you?
(Laughs) You're asking some questions alright! Ah, sure, listen, we're all mad and wild as teenagers, yeah? It was a big thing. The answer is yes.
Was the fact that you were a musician a help, when it came to getting off with women?
Yeah. We had this romantic idea that sitting in the corner with the long hair and the guitar would help. Yeah, that's true. I went through that phase, yeah.
How old were you when you lost your virginity?
Oh, Janey Mackers (laughs)! I'll put down no comment (roars laughing). Jesus, no, I'll not... No comment, right? I don't think I'll be telling anybody that! The official answer is no comment! Don't hang me now, right (laughs)!
But did you have many girlfriends before you got married?
Oh, I did, yeah - lots! But I don't know the number now! Get lost! I won't tell you. I had lots of lovely girlfriends. The answer is yes. The first time I asked Anne out, she blew me out, of course! I had to go back the second time.
When did you know that your wife Anne was the one for you and that you would get married?
We weren't together long when we knew this was going to be it. It was very quick actually. We just gelled. We just knew it was going to work, you know?
It's six years now since Anne died. You were married for 28 years. How are you coping?
It's very, very difficult. We're living each day and the pain is getting lesser, but you never actually get over it. My two daughters (and I), we're all really missing Anne. But, at the same time, I've now got a granddaughter as well, baby Anna. So, we've a lot of good times. We're a very close family and that keeps us surviving. But we're still broken-hearted after Anne passing away.
It was a long illness...
Yeah, she lived with cancer for 14 years. We reared the girls while she had cancer. She was an amazing woman and there isn't a moment in the day we don't think about her. I visit her grave regularly for a chat. If I'm ever in a hole - like I was last week - I always have a word with her. She's near me. I'd be kind of spiritual - a bit conscious of a personal spirit - and I basically find she's always near me and advising me and supporting, particularly in relation to the two girls, and now the granddaughter.
Have you been able to move on and have other relationships?
On a personal level, no. I'm happy enough with my state. I'm not involved in any relationship. And number two is: I've built and developed the relationship with my two daughters and I'm happy enough with where I am - but you never know in life.
Six years ago, you told me, 'I think that's it for me. Anne was the love of my life'. Six years is a long time, so I thought I'd ask you again.
(Laughs) Well, it hasn't changed! The honest answer is no! I'm very boring for Hot Press, amn't I (laughs)?
What inspired you to get involved in politics?
I worked in the north inner city for many years as a primary school teacher - and particularly during the '80s when there was massive unemployment, huge drugs problems and massive deprivation. So, that was the first thing. The second thing was that I was one of Tony Gregory's election workers and I saw the issues that he was pushing. And, of course, then the influence of my personal family situation. I got involved in Down Syndrome Ireland. So, I gradually got involved in the disability debate. Twenty years ago there was absolutely no services in the country for children with disability.
You've a daughter with Down Syndrome. Yet Vincent Browne wrote on the journal.ie: 'Finian McGrath doesn't matter one way or another but he is a fine example of the absurdity of appointing people to offices for which they are not remotely qualified'. Were you angry about that?
Angry? I wouldn't say that, no - but, I'll tell you, they need to get their facts right. First of all, I'm a parent with a daughter with an intellectual disability, right? I was also a fonder 20 years ago of Parents' Integration, a parents' group of children with different disabilities. Then, I was chairperson of the Dublin branch of Down Syndrome Ireland; I was also treasurer for a few years. And then, eventually, I was on the national executive. I have a strong record. I also did a lot of work in relation to disabilities as a teacher. I think that gives me some sort of a qualification to have a go at this job.
Do comments like that not show that there is a lot of ignorance in the media?
I would say that, yeah. I think that people who are in that whole (media) sector need to wise-up and get their facts right.
Someone suggested that Vincent Browne was critical of you because he's annoyed that you won't do his show.
That's a possibility. I did it a few times, but I don't do it every week. But he has to realise as well, late nights on a Tuesday night and all that, I've a carer in most of the day minding my daughter. By the time I get home at 9.30/10 o'clock I don't have time to go out to TV3. That's the reality. I'm also a widower. It's all very well to make these smart alec comments. There's an arrogance with him I don't like. But, at the same time, I've more important things to focus on.
Tell us about the formation of the government - was there even the remotest possibility that the independents might have supported Fianna Fáil?
Oh, there was, yes. It was 50-50 at one stage. People don't realise it was that close. We had very successful talks with Micheál Martin.
I got the impression that Fianna Fáil weren't interested in going into government.
Of course we were a bit suspicious that they were happy to possibly end up in opposition because they were looking over their shoulders at Sinn Féin and the other smaller radical parties. That is a possibility too. But there was a time when there was 14 independent TDs to be played for and Micheál Martin was at the races for a while. But the bottom line is: he didn't have the numbers. And the number two reason is that the Fine Gael guys came up with offers that we could live with.
There must have been some dramatic moments during negotiations with Fine Gael.
It was a very tough, complicated negotiation, because we had to bring them along our road. Our road was to ensure that if we were going to do a deal that it had to be a partnership government, but it had to be all about a fairer Ireland. It wasn't just about having power, it was about using power to affect the kind of change that we desire in our society. It wasn't an easy thing for us to do, which is a very important to know. We are independents at heart and we're trying to do a deal with a major political party - that was tough. But we did it because we felt that if we can get some of our ideas into the Programme for Government then it's worth a shot.
Was there any point when you thought, 'Sod this for a load of nonsense!' and felt like walking out?
Oh, yeah, loads of times. There were loads of walk-outs and loads of rows and blood on the floor - absolutely. There was a few blazing rows. There was about seven or eight times when we thought things were going to collapse. We stuck in there. We were determined to come to an agreement. We got over the line in the end - but it was right down to the wire.
How were you able to broker a deal?
We had to change the mindset of the major political party that had been in power. Some of their people at the beginning didn't seem to get that. It was like a little bit of tolerating the independents. That took us a week or two to change. If you're going to have independents in power it wasn't just to make up the numbers, it had to be a partnership government and we had to be treated with respect. But, above all, the issues that we put on the table had to be taken seriously.
What type of issues were you personally pushing?
I was having the rows about the new cystic fibrosis unit in Beaumont Hospital, capital investment in the emergency department and issues like medical cards for all children with disabilities. They were a bit slow to get it. But, in the end, in fairness now, some of them got it and moved quicker than others. I'm particularly talking about people like Simon Harris, Eoghan Murphy, Simon Coveney, Leo Varadkar: they began to cop on that this is a new politics and things are changing rapidly.
It was said that the independent TDs were flipping coins to see who would get which ministerial position?
I don't know where that story came from, but we didn't - we knew exactly. The first issue was we wanted to get our stuff into the Programme for Government. It was at the very end that we started discussing Cabinet posts and there was a joke about Boxer (Kevin Moran) and Seán Canney - somebody said that they were sharing one of the junior ministries for the OPW and there was a story going around that they tossed a coin. The honest answer is: I don't know, but I'd be very surprised.
As a self-described maverick, how do you feel sitting on the same benches as Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan. It wasn't long ago you were sitting across from them in opposition?
There's no doubt about it, it's a strange feeling. You're looking across the chamber and you're getting attacked by some of your former colleagues across the backbenches - regardless of what you do. If you're fighting for things that you believe in, you have to be prepared to take hits. There are downsides to it. It's not the easiest place to be.
What are the downsides?
Well, the downside is you're regularly being criticised even when you're trying to do something positive. The other downside is, when you're an independent spirit it is tough at times to bite your lip.
Are some of those colleagues in Opposition slagging you off and saying, 'You sold out!'?
Yes. That's exactly it. A lot of my colleagues will do that publicly in the chamber and publicly on the airways - but a lot of them privately are coming to me and wishing me well! They understand the decision I made. I have to smile at the hypocrisy of some of them coming to ask me to do favours for them!
It's been a bruising few weeks for you. There've been a lot of negative comments in the media.
If you're talking about in relation to the smoking ban, I have to take responsibility for that myself as well. I just gave my personal views in an interview. All my constituents in Dublin North Bay know I smoke. They know I'm addicted to nicotine. I try to get off them every day of my life. And all of a sudden, I was a pariah - and I was attacked by puritans. I was lambasted because I was a Minister under the health portfolio, but I'm actually (minister) in charge of disabilities. I thought there was a lot of huge, unnecessary negativity and misrepresentation.
It sounds like it upset you...
It did upset me that anybody with a dissenting voice on an issue like that was automatically attacked, beaten up, ridiculed - and my old civil libertarian instincts were very mad. It wasn't a nice place to be. What I said was, 'Let's not spend our lives beating up smokers. Let's have proper designated areas in pubs that are clean and people can stand in out of the cold and rain'. That's the message I wanted to get across. Of course I support the health section in the programme for government. I never, ever, said to roll back the smoking ban. I accept the debate on the broader issue is over.
A lot of people will think that what you said about smokers is right - that smokers are treated like pariahs and that they are actively discriminated against now in Ireland?
Oh, yeah, there is that feeling amongst smokers, but also among non-smokers. I've met a lot of non-smokers over the last few weeks since I was being attacked and ridiculed by sections of the media and by some of my colleagues in the Dáil. There's a lot of people who understand; they're sympathetic. It's amazing the amount of people who came on to me and praised me privately.
Is there not a big danger that Ireland is become a ridiculously self-righteous society, rather than a place where we live and let live?
Well, there's an element of that, yes - and I don't like it. It makes me very uncomfortable. There's a certain kind of attitude about anybody who's not going with the cosy consensus and that concerns me. But I do feel that the vast majority of people are decent and fairly understanding.
Would you say the same is true of attitudes to alcohol: people should be able to have a few drinks and not be lectured to?
I would actually, because I do feel... I'm a firm in the old-fashion thing: everything in moderation is ok and life has to be enjoyed. I always believe in that old fashioned view, but I also think it's a sensible view and it's a view that a lot of our parents and grandparents have. Of course we have an issue with people who excessively smoke or excessively drink - you have to have clear guidelines and health policies for that. But for the average working man or woman that likes to go for a pint and a cigarette, I mean, why would you begrudge them? And what's the problem with it?
Anti-alcohol campaigners try to insist that Ireland has a huge problem, to the extent that you'd think we were the biggest drinkers in the world - whereas in fact we are No.20 in the OECD charts, behind the likes of Portugal, Poland, Finland, Australia and France, as well as a load of Eastern European countries. Looking at the stats, is there not a deliberate attempt to hoodwink us all? All these countries are ahead of us, but yet the try to portray us as having the binge problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah Ð that's fair comment. It's something that we have to deal with as well. But, at the same time, there is a section of Irish society now, I feel strongly, that are involved in binge drinking and we need to watch that. What I'm talking about is the average person who likes to go for his pint with his family and his friends and his neighbours - what's wrong with that?
You got into hot water over not paying your water tax. You were very vocal that you weren't going to pay it.
It wasn't a huge issue in my election campaign. I said it on my leaflet - it was one sentence on my leaflet that I voted against water charges.
So, you paid it not to rock the boat?
No minister is above the law, first thing. And number two, I felt it was a distraction to the more serious things I was trying to do. I found myself in a position of being in Cabinet. My election workers advised me saying, if I was to keep going on like that it would be distracting from cystic fibrosis and heath and disability issues and serious issues. So, I decided to pay the charge.
Have you paid your property tax?
The property tax is paid. I voted against it in the Dáil a couple of years ago, right? But I did pay it and there was no hoo-ha at all about that.
The consensus is that this government is not going to last very long?
It seems as if everybody's determined that it's not going to last and particularly from within the Dáil here. The honest answer is: I'm hoping that it'll last three years and if we can get any kind of stability, we could bring that up higher.
Do you not think that's wishful thinking?
The naysayers and the cynics will think so. Every day is a tough day. I accept that. But, listen, we're going to do our damnedest. The bottom line is: it's not just about having power, it's about using that power to bring in change. I'm not in this job just to be a Minister, I want to see if I can do something as a minister. And the day I stop being able to do something positive as a minister is the day I'll look myself in the mirror and say, 'Right, there's no point in being around here'. It has got to be about using the power to effect change.
So, what do you want to achieve as this so-called super junior minister or minister for disabilities? You have a few different titles!
I do. People are joking to me about the super-duper and all that kind of stuff! First of all, I want to change the mindset in Ireland towards people with disabilities. I want to go from the charity view of people with disabilities to the human rights view: they're citizens; they're our children; they are our brothers and sisters, and they have rights and they have rights to services.
Can you explain the implications?
I want Ireland ratifying the UN Convention on the rights of persons with disabilities - that's on page 10 of the Programme for Government. The third thing that I'd love to see is: guaranteed services in places for all young children and adults with physical and intellectual disabilities. And the fourth thing - my big one in the Programme for Government, if I get this over the line I'll be really proud - is the extension of the medical card for all children in receipt of the domiciliary care allowance. That's approximately 10,000 children in the State. And the final really big thing for me would be to improve the speech and language services for all children with disabilities.
On the Late Late Show recently, Brendan O'Connor spoke movingly about his own experiences as a parent of a child with Down Syndrome. He lambasted Ireland as being 20 years behind other EU states.
I would agree with Brendan on those particular issues. Now, we have moved a fair bit, since 20 years ago. When my daughter was small, there was no such thing as resource hours in primary schools or special needs assistance, right. So, 20 years later they have that in thousands of schools and thousands of classrooms. But, at the same time, we've a long way to go. And I totally agree with Brendan in relation to speech and language therapists.
What's going to be done about it?
I put in to the Programme for Government that I want 25% increase in speech and language therapists. But I know in my heart I'll be pushing for a hell of a lot more because we are behind other EU countries. And the other issue I'll be banging the table about is the carer strategy, which was brought-in in 2012 - that has to be implemented in full. Part of the issue is we need to change the mindset and need to ensure that all children and adults with disabilities have rights. Every time we're looking for services, people are moaning to us about, 'Oh, this costs a lot of money'. We pay taxes like every other parent and every other citizen in this country, so we're quite entitled to have services for our children.
What about the families of people with disabilities?
There's about 600,000 families in our State who either have a family member or somebody with a particular kind of disability. That's why I was pushing for the super junior minister at the cabinet table, because these people need to be represented. We've 160,000 farmers in the country and they've a full-time minister for agriculture. People with disabilities should at least have a voice at the Cabinet table. Now, I didn't get my full thing (full ministerial role) but we compromised and got the 'super junior' instead.
Where mental illness is concerned, is there not a huge extent to which families are left to deal with what can be an appalling level of pressure and emotional damage - and the State effectively does nothing for them? The attitude seems to be: 'Tough shit'.
Absolutely. The mental health issue is a huge issue for the Independence Alliance and for myself. Now, my speciality is going to be in disabilities but that doesn't mean that I will be taking my eye off the ball in relation to mental health service, because we have a huge crisis. So, we managed to get into the Programme for Government, on page 66, about further capacity in child and adolescent mental health services.
Should people with mental health issues be forced to go into A&E?
We need more 24/7 support in primary and emergency care in relation to mental health services. The best example of that would be in Beaumont Hospital: we have the Aisling Centre there, which is a centre for people with mental health issues, which is away from the A&E and all the other things. We need that rolled out around the country.
Unemployment in Spain is around 23% Ð and yet the health system is far better than in Ireland.
I saw a different situation as well when I was in Portugal: it's amazing, isn't it, how countries like that managed to do that, you know?
You have always campaigned on equality issues so I am curious what you think about this: isn't it true that historically, compared to women, men have been very badly treated by the legal system - especially in relation to family law cases?
Oh, there's a huge gap there. I accept that. And this is one thing I came across during the general election knocking on the doors: I found a lot of single men that felt totally excluded. I also found a lot of men in their 60s/70s/ and 80s who were at home and were acting as carers. Some of them were widowers; other people were just caring for their wife who had Alzheimer's; or were carers in the home. Yes, there's no doubt about it - we've got to ensure that men are not left behind in relation to the broader debate about equality.
It often seems that women are prepared to paint the father of their child in a horribly negative light, to try to deny access, as a form of punishment or revenge.
Well, there's a lot of personal issues that go on between couples. There's something in that, alright. I would accept that point. My view would be with access to children: first of all, the priority has to be given to the safety of the child and there are some men who are very violent. That has to be protected. But there are also many I've met privately in my clinics that have been excluded from seeing their children and I think that's appalling.
What can be done about this?
I would strongly support any reform to ensure, again, that if we're talking about equality, you're talking about equality among men and women. As a politician and a legislator, I've got to ensure that men and women in Irish society are treated equally - and if there are men who are falling way behind, it's my job to ensure that they're brought up to speed.
There's a view out there that women are forgiven more easily - in modern culture - for things that men would never be forgiven for? For example, a man who is caught smuggling cocaine is a loathsome criminal. Michaela McCollum is given a big glossy feature on RTÉ, but if that was a man he would've been demonised.
I agree - that was a big thing at the time. I thought that totally glamorised that case. Those two women particularly were found guilty of smuggling huge drugs from South America. I thought there was too much glamorisation of it - and if that was a man there would be a completely different reaction. So, when you're talking about equality, you've got to ensure there's equality in the press as well as the broader society.
Is it not a form of sexism in itself that women tend to get lesser sentences for equivalent crimes?
I wouldn't describe it as sexism, but we have to do something about equality in justice.
Are you for or against the gender quotas in the Dáil?
I was never a big fan of quotas. I always believed strongly in meritocracy. I think there's amazing women in the Dáil, in the Councils and in the Seanad. I believe in a meritocracy - whether you're a man or woman, the best person should get the job. I don't believe in artificially creating spaces for people. It mightn't be very popular, but that's my view.
What would your thoughts be on legalizing marijuana and drugs in general?
I'm not for legalisation.
So, what should be done to tackle the issue?
I think we have to use the Portuguese model in relation to dealing with the drugs issue. We need a more of a health care model rather than a criminal justice model. I've an open mind, but I'm not saying legalise it tomorrow morning!
So, you're saying decriminalisation?
Yes. I would be in that zone. I'm still waiting - I think there should be a broader debate about it because I'd like to hear everyone's views before I make up my mind. I do know that we have a problem and we need to do it in more of a healthcare way than a criminal justice way. That's my view at the moment.
What's your thoughts on legalising marijuana for medicinal purposes?
I agree with it for legalised medicinal purposes, especially for cancer patients.
And what about injection centres, which Fr Peter McVerry believes should be introduced? Would you be in favour of things like that?
Yeah, well, you have to treat the addicts.
Have you ever tried marijuana?
Never in my life! It's amazing, like, for the guy who smokes cigarettes, I've never smoked pot. Never.
You were never tempted?
No, not even as a teenager.
What's your thoughts on the 8th Amendment?
I support the repeal of the 8th Amendment, in order to support women with fatal foetal abnormalities.
And your thoughts on legalising prostitution?
I'd be totally opposed to the legalisation of prostitution because I think it's exploitation of women. I don't give a damn what anybody says to you - even those that (are) saying they're willingly doing it. I just think it's exploitation. We need to ensure that people are safe and not exposed or exploited. It's probably a very traditional view, but that's my view. You're probably surprised at that now!
I thought you might have had a different view when it concerned people with disabilities. There was a great documentary on RTÉ a few years ago, in which a guy with a disability talked about going to a sex worker.
I heard about that, yeah. There's a lot of people with disabilities, by the way, who have sexual relations- including my own daughter, who is going out with a lovely guy called Ross and they're boyfriend/girlfriend and the two of them are Down Syndrome and they have a relationship. So, the answer is: people with disabilities can have their own relationships.
Are you religious?
I would've been very religious as a kid. I wouldn't be very religious now, but I enjoy other religions and I enjoy certain aspects of my own faith in relation to Catholicism. I always think of a Fionn Regan song called 'Be Good or Be Gone' - and that would be my kind of ethos in everything. I get up every day and I try to do at least five to ten good things - some people call it Christianity, some people call it Buddhism, some people call it purism or humanism. That's the way I see it. So, I have a very broad mind.
Do you believe in heaven and hell?
I've an open mind (laughs). I'm hoping there is a heaven with loads of rock 'n' roll - and my dream would be to meet Rory Gallagher and play with him. I just thought he was the best guitar player ever. There's no debating that.