When it comes to honing in on the core issues at the heart of country music, Ricky Skaggs is, undoubtedly the most honest interviewee I've ever encountered. Though fully aware that his beliefs will be perceived as right-wing, Christian funadmentalism by readers of Hot Press he sees no need to lie or deny his base simply to appease people who may not share his point of view. Indeed, he agrees with Bono,who, in a recent Hot Press interview, said he respects people who "particularly aggressively don't believe" in Christ and Christianity. For his part, sitting backstage at the 1993 Nashville Fan Fair, Skaggs speaks with what can only be described as missionary zeal, eager to impart his philosophy to readers in Ireland.
An occasional visitor to these shores, Ricky Skaggs is widely regarded as the musician who started the new traditionalist movement in the early 1980s, hauling country back from the strings and synthesisers that had dominated Nashville in the post Urban Cowboy boom and thus paving a path for the likes of Dwight Yoakam, Steve Earle and Randy Travis. Once part of Emmylou Harris' band, on Skagg's 1985 Live In London album he was joined by admirer Elvis Costello and has also produced a back-to-basics album for Dolly Parton. A renowned multi-instrumentalist, singer and occasional songwriter his latest album is My Father's Son. Ricky Skaggs also played on the Chieftains Grammy award winning album Another Country and appeared in Philip King's documentary Bringing It All Back Home, talking about the links between American and Irish music. It seems as good a place as any to start this interview.
"I was born in Kentucky, in 1954, and I've done some research on the family name and it goes back to a place in Sweden called 'Skaggarack' and I believe there were probably Vikings that came out of there and went to Ireland which explains our ancestral base in Donegal, before the family moved to America," he says. "And when I went back to Ireland and played with Irish musicians I found that the tunes were the same, and the spirit was the same, as the stuff I learned growing up in Kentucky. Those guys had different names for the tunes but they were almost the same. What changed was that, probably in the mid 1700s, people playing the old Irish tunes in the Appalachian mountains added their homesickness and longing to their form of expression, which gives you that high lonesome sound that is so unique to country. Then again I listen to fiddlers play in Donegal and hear a loneliness, a groaning sound that may have more to do with your country's history of oppression. But that lonesome sound, plus the happy, dancing element certainly influenced American country music, no doubt."
Spreading his reference points to include rock, particularly the songs of U2, Ricky Skaggs suggests that a spiritual longing is the hallmark of much Irish music.
"I'd love to get to talk to Bono about this, about matters related to the spiritual realm, which is what I hear in their music," he explains. "Especially about what God's doing, and what he wants to do with secular music. So many people think that God is present only in Christian music but God owns all music. And maybe, because Ireland was, and is, such a Christian country, those aspects of its spiritual history are bound to come out in the music, whether musicians label it that or not. God gave your people that for a reason. And, in terms of those who brought that spiritual longing to American music, it's like Cajun music which is created by people who were driven out of Acadia and moved down the Mississippi as far as they could go. That's why Daniel Lanois and U2 work so well together. Added to that, in American rock music you have the spiritual longing of blacks who were transported to this country as slaves.To me, those underlying factors that relate to what makes people want to create music in the first place, are more intrinsic that the stylistic similarities or whether a music is country, gospel or rock 'n' roll."
Any analysis of the spiritual base in American music must travel back to beyond the black, the Irish, the Cajun influences to Native American culture. Johnny Cash has suggested that the American people and, by extension, American music, will never fully mature until they acknowledge, and reconnect with those roots. Does Ricky Skaggs agree?
"Yes. I also think that white, Christian people have never publicly stood before the Red Indians and said 'We're sorry we did you that way. As a Christian nation we should repent for what we did'. Consequently, the Indian people are the hardest to reach with the gospel, because there is a wall between them and the white community as a result of the way they have been treated since the birth of this nation."
Surely Native Americans have every right to feel antagonistic towards Christianity in light of the fact that early American statesmen, such as General Andrew Jackson, initiated mass genocide in the name of Christ?
"Absolutely. He was made a hero over here but to the Indians he was like an Adolph Hitler," says Skaggs. "He drove those people off their lands and 5,000 of them died on the way to Oklahoma.That Trail of Tears they took goes right by the front of his porch here in Donaldson, at the Hermitage. But although he claimed to be a Christian he certainly wasn't acting in the way Jesus Christ would have wanted him to act. And true Christians must admit that, at this point in our history. We have never stood before the red man, before the blacks, the Chinese, the Jews all those we have oppressed, and exploited in this country. We must do that."
Yet what chance is there of that when, in a state like Tennessee, for example, White Supremacists still rule? Didn't the Ku Klux Klan originate right here in the home state of country music?
"Not only that, but their first meeting was here in Nashville at the Maxwell House Hotel," notes Skaggs. "The Masonic is very strong here in Nashville and if you read their vows and codes in terms of all their craziness you will see that they are, indeed, white supremacists. So much so that they won't let black masons in, who then had to go and form their own organisation. And, again, these white masons, who claim to be Christians, are so
hypocritical. All the company they keep, and the codes they live by, have nothing to do with Christ. But, yes, all that is the dominant ethos here in Nashville, though you don't hear too many people talking about it."
Running a line back to the time Elvis was originally told to take his "nigger music" back to Memphis by Jim Denny of the Grand Ol Opry, Ricky Skaggs claims that racial prejudice is the irrefutable reason black music never thrived, or even survived in Nashville.
"They never even wanted it to influence country music, at any level," he suggests. "Deford Bailey, a harmonica player, was really the only black man ever allowed to play on the Opry up to the time Charlie Pride came along. But, even during his concerts, in the '70s and '80s, people would shout 'Hey, nigger, get off that stage'. He's had to go through a lot of persecution for being black in country music. Maybe that's why so few black people even bother to try break through, here in Nashville. Whereas in rock 'n' roll they did, from the start, because it was a lot more open and the audiences were so much younger and seemed to automatically say 'I ain't gonna discriminate against Chuck Berry, he ain't ever done nothing on me' - or whoever. But that still hasn't happened in country music."
Ricky Skaggs reveals that he is involved with a Christian group who are planning a Spiritual Warfare Conference, on behalf of country music.
"They believe that country music is part of God's design for revival in the last days," he says. "I believe that as well. I believe that what I do is ministry. The kind of music I do encourages husbands and wives to stay together, not beat each other. It encourages kids to forgive their fathers and fathers to forgive. It's like when Jesus said 'in the last days I'm going to pour my spirit out on all flesh'. But that, He said, can only be done when fathers turn their hearts back to children and families on earth are reconciled.That's gonna happen. But the only way it can happen is when we realise that we have to repent. And we want to use country music to spread that message. Many country stars I know feel that way."
But how open is the country music industry itself to such a concept, particularly following the doubling of its market share over the past 18 months. Surely the powers-that-be won't sacrifice profit in the broadest possible market just to push Christian music, disguised or otherwise.
"There already has been an article in a paper here recently that said that the devil's got his claws in country music so what you're saying is true," replies Skaggs. "But this Christian historian friend of mine, Steve Mansfield, has printed up a book on Nashville, called Destiny and he says - and I believe - that God created country music for us to use it in His name. Country music was birthed out of gospel music because God knew that Christian music alone could not reach the lost. So, in order to have mass revival, as with St. Paul, you've got to go where the most people are and preach the world of the Lord. Jesus said 'Go to the world, don't try to drag sinners into the church' and Paul did just that. And I believe that country music was created to make people turn from the paths they are walking,whether they are cheating on their wives, drinking alcohol or doing drugs. Country may never bring people into the prayer room, as gospel does, but it can make them turn their hearts from sin. And it should, no matter what the industry itself says. But maybe the industry itself is aware of this need because, after years of having to quietly slip my Christian songs onto secular albums and being told 'don't mention that dreaded J word on stage' I've now been approached by my record company and asked to do a gospel album. So things are changing, for the better."
Flicking back through the pages of the history of country music Ricky Skaggs suggests that performers such as Jimmie Rodgers "the father of country music", operated in the name of the Jesus Christ. But some, such as the recently deceased Conway Twitty, failed the Lord, he says.
"He had about 50 country hits and 48 of them had to do with sex and going cheating on your wife," he explains. "So country music has not, by-and-large, been a holy music. But in this generation there are more people singing clean lyrics. And people obviously want that.
"That's why they're turning, in their millions, from rock 'n' roll to country here in the United States. We, in country music , have to do all we can to see that this trend continues."
In this context, how did Ricky Skaggs respond to U2's last album, Achtung Baby!, which although produced by a group who can be described as gospel-based, nonetheless contained sexually explicit lyrics. What's his response to Bono's claim that this was his own attempt to burst beyond the Judea-Christain tradition, to accept the flesh and the physical life as equal to the life of the spirit?
"Those elements have to be addressed in music and God gives grace to certain people to do that but we have to be so careful that we don't walk in that," says Skaggs. "Like Bono said in your interview, he will have a drink with the devil but he ain't gonna move in with him.That's what Jesus said: 'You've got to be in the world, but not of it'. And, as Christians, our ministry - whether it is Bono's or mine - has to be of the church but not in it. We have to go out into the world and do our work in that way."
Skaggs believes that in what he perceives as the present spiritual vacuum, many people are turning to Satanism - including rock stars.
"Many rock stars are into that and into sending those messages out through their music, in a coded way," he says."There is an anointing of the Holy Spirit and an anointing of the Unholy spirit. God created all music, Satan hasn't created anything other than a 24 hour-a-day record service. He stays open all the time and drags you into a used car lot. So I know very well that this kind of rock music, dedicated to Satan, is alive and well here in America. It's played well and seems exciting to young audiences so there are a lot of kids into that, into groups like Metallica. And, where we have prayers before we go on stage, I believe that some of those groups have seances and pray to Satan before they face their audience. They all should be exposed. There is a war going on against our youth and these people are trying to take their souls so they won't walk in the fullness of God. But if that's the ruling ethos in rock culture we gotta remember that the Lord said, 'In the middle of a storm I will raise up a standard'. And I believe God will do that to combat such forces. And those of us who are in the music industry, who believe in his word, must help him."
Looking back to the original influence of the 'devil's music' on rock 'n' roll, Ricky Skaggs suggests that Elvis Presley, in particular, was a failure in one fundamental way.
"Elvis was called to be an evangelist. There's no doubt in my mind about that," he says. "Elvis Presley had the calling, from God, on his life. He could have been the greatest evangelist in music - like a Billy Graham. But he forfeited his inheritance. And there was a desire in his heart, his spirit was groaning, to be a Christian. I really believe that. And Jerry Lee Lewis was called, from the time he was a young child, to be an evangelist. But, because the church didn't understand the anointing or the nature of the calling at that time and because neither Elvis nor Jerry Lee slotted in with the way the Church thought it ought to go, they both rebelled and out of that rebellion came rock 'n' roll. And I don't blame them for rebelling, because the church wasn't open to where they were coming from."
Pausing, to preface his next comment with "here's one that will blow your mind," Skaggs claims that the Beatles too "had a calling from God", even though they incensed Christians by claiming, in 1966, that they were more popular than Christ and despite the fact that they endorsed the use of drugs.
"No group in the world ever influenced people the way the Beatles did and in that I include the later influences," he argues. "God gave them the gift too and for years they brought people together in joyful celebration but, in the end, they abused that gift to score points for the other side. Yet God's original design was that those four guys were anointed, called by God to usher in a charismatic revival to young people, just as Elvis had been. But they too, finally failed the Lord."
Ricky Skaggs doesn't go so far as to suggest that the murder of John Lennon was divine retribution for the way he "wasted" his gifts, but he does believe that Elvis's demise and history of drug-abuse can not be disassociated from his "failing as an evangelist."
"I think there was something in him that he could not handle by himself," he says. "Only with God's grace and His help can you ever do anything like rise above those addictions and rise above those personality defects you have, those human failings. Elvis didn't."
But couldn't even a Christian believer argue that God failed Elvis Presley, by ignoring the almost palpable prayers that echoed through the words of gospel tunes like 'Peace In The Valley' and 'Stand By Me'? Skaggs seems offended by the suggestion.
"God doesn't fail, man fails," he says, emphatically. "God never fails. God will only give you the amount of grace that you are willing to accept. God is the God of the second chance. All you have to do is lift your hand and repent and go to him and he's just a breath away. He will hear a sinner's prayer. But maybe Elvis didn't reach out to Jesus, in that way, just before he died."
In his new album, My Father's Son with its dual emphasis on his earthly father and his heavenly father, Ricky Skaggs certainly reveals himself to be committed to spreading God's message.
But I don't want to be known as a Christina artist, I want to be known as an artist who is a Christian," he explains. "The Lord has given me a secular audience to preach to.That's how I work, by preaching little parables through which people can better understand their lives.Take a song like 'Lovin' Only Me' which says: "They say you're cold as ice/But I don't believe it/'Cause when I get close you/Your temperature goes up." To me, that is Christ singing to the bride. Yes, it could be read as a sexy lyric, but the Lord knows my heart, he knows what I'm saying. And that's the way my songs work."
On his latest album Ricky Skaggs also sings a song berating life in the fast lane: 'Life's Too Long to Live Like This.' Is it autobiographical in any way?
"I drank but I never got into the drugs thing, because I knew how it effected my playing," he says. "I had too much pride in my music to be a dingbat! I knew I could play better if I was sober and straight. But I do hear jazz and rock musicians employ the phrase that they can 'kiss God' when they use drugs and that, to me is a downright and dangerous lie. It even took hold in country music there for a time, when a lot of steel players in town were really trying to innovate.There were a lot saying 'take this pill, learn this lick' but it never produced any great music, as far as I can tell. And Johnny Cash himself had his time on drugs but I don't think he'd ever try to argue that he made his best music at that time. And these days, in country and in rock, people are waking up to the fallacy of drugs and creativity. They're saying, 'We don't have to be stoned to play well'. And that, to me, is the truth."
In the wake of the success of Garth Brooks and co. does Ricky Skaggs feel he gets enough credit for the return-to-roots movement he started a decade ago?
"What we did in the early '80s was to bring a purity and a real, raw country sound back to the major market place, instead of all those synthesisers and strings," he says. "The reason I moved in that direction was because I love country music and I felt that the soul and the spirit had been sapped out of it by the attempt to crossover into the pop market. Country music was beginning to be just a buy-and-sell commodity with most everybody going for the quick buck. But I feel it's already become a buy-and-sell commodity again, this time round. Because of the success of Garth Brooks every label here in Nashville is over-saturated with new artists, trying to find the next Garth Brooks. And despite what I said earlier, about a lot of the new acts singing clean lyrics and so on, a lot of them are singing nothing of worth at all, just aiming for the dollar. A lot of these new artists really have far more to do with image and marketing, overall, than with music. It's the hat, the 'hunk-factor'. It's record companies who, having tapped into a market where millions of young women are buying country records, now seem dedicated to just holding onto that audience.The dollar is dominating Nashville again. The record companies just want the one album that can sell nine million copies and then they move on to the next artist and aren't into developing talent that can last 20, 25 years. To me all this is taking the soul out of country again, and it may finally mean the death of country music."
And yet, as much as he loves country music one suspects that Ricky Skaggs would mourn its passing mostly because of the loss of a channel through which he can push the word of the Lord.
"That is true," he admits. "But because, as I said, country was birthed out of gospel it also has to stay in touch with that base or it will die. And I really do believe that if the preachers and the Church ain't reaching people in the way they should be - which they ain't - then the Lord has said, 'I'm going to take some artists out there who have a heart for me, and a heart for my people, and through their music I'm going to touch peoples' lives'. That's what I do. I don't want to be a bible-thumper or hit people over the head. But I do want to hit them in the heart and spirit, just like rock 'n' roll groups like U2 want to do. Jesus wants to reclaim all the arts, from music to movies to theatre. He gave them all to us in the first place and now he wants them back. And people like myself have to help him win that battle."