Political eyebrows were raised in March when Holly Cairns, a new intake TD with only ten months previous Cork County Council experience, was unopposed in her bid to take-over from Róisín Shorthall and Catherine Murphy as leader of the Social Democrats.

Journalists I know who cover the Dáil beat fulltime had expected the nod to go to Cairns’ Dublin-based colleague Gary Gannon, another Leinster House newbie who’d been a Dublin City Councillor since 2014, came within a whisker of being elected to the house two years later and has become a TV and radio regular.

Fast-forward to May and, according to an Ireland Thinks poll carried out for the Sunday Independent, the Bantry native is now the most popular political party leader in the country with a 45% approval rating – 2% higher than Mary Lou McDonald and 13% higher than Ivana Bacik who, it could be argued, has failed to reinvigorate Labour the same way that Cairns has the Social Democrats.

Those self-same Dáil journos of my acquaint are now talking about the Social Democrats potentially doubling their current six TDs at the next election and replacing the Greens as the most likely party to be junior coalition partners.

While that’s pure political speculation, we know from talking to her last year that Cairns is unequivocally in favour of drugs being decriminalised in Ireland and was one of the loudest Dáil voices calling for the current Citizens’ Assembly to be convened.

“Often-times, people immediately think, ‘Oh, it has to be criminalised, that’s the only way to deal with it,’” she reflected in February 2022. “What we all need to do is think about somebody we know and love. If they were having addiction issues, would you want them criminalised and locked up? Or would you want them to get some help and support?”

With a close family member tragically dying in 2019 from an overdose, it’s something that she’s personally invested in.

Holly Cairns has firmly nailed her colours to the mast regarding drug policy, but what else does the new Social Democrats leader stand for? Hot Press went to her Dáil office last week to find out…

Holly Cairns. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Stuart Clark: I presume that going from Cork County Council to party leader in three years is all part of the masterplan?
Holly Cairns: I would love to say “Yes”, but it’s all been a complete rollercoaster from start to where we are now. I lost the County Council election by one vote, called for a recall and won by one vote! I was elected to the Dáil on the eighth count so I’m not sure how masterful the plan has been… I do think that in politics you either go in hard or go home. You can’t do things half-heartedly.”

Were you surprised that no one ran against you for the leadership of the party?
Yeah, I was! One of the nicest surprises ever was when I said I was going to really go for it and all the parliamentary party rode in behind. It meant a lot. I wouldn’t be able to do the role without their support. The way that Catherine (Murphy) and Róisín (Shortall) set up the party – and they’re due so much credit – is that it’s not particularly hierarchical. We’ve always collectively made decisions and I really hope that I can continue that.

It gives you a very strong mandate.
Yeah, which is amazing. It’s great to have their support. The other TDs – Cian (O’Callaghan), Gary (Gannon) and Jennifer (Whitmore) – we all work well together. There are no knives in the back. It’s a really nice position to work from.

How, in a couple of sentences, would you define the Social Democrats?
Holly Cairns: Okay, here’s the short version… We’re a new, left of centre party. We exist because there’s a need for progressive alternatives in Irish politics. We’re young, exciting and ready to fill the void that’s been created by the two, if you like, civil war parties letting people down.

I asked you to be succinct – which you have been, admirably so! – but that last sentence probably needs teasing out.
Yes, in most countries the traditional political landscape is that there’s a left and a right. In Ireland, perhaps uniquely, our politics has for the past hundred years been shaped by the civil war. We all know from living and growing up here that, in many ways, people identify with their political parties as if it’s a nationality or a religion. You’d hear somebody say, “I’m Irish, I’m Fine Gael, I’m a Catholic.” But in recent decades with the housing crisis and the country going bankrupt, people have lost trust in those political establishments and are really starting to look for a place to put their vote. Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil would historically have got 90% of the vote, but now they can barely cobble a majority together between them and the Greens. There’s a void that until recently only one party, Sinn Féin, has been consistently big enough to fill. Whilst they were still independents, Catherine and Róisín saw the need for this other dynamic, progressive alternative that’s serious about things like climate action. That’s why we exist. We’re certainly not doing it for the craic!

What are you doing to reach out to the people – especially those on the margins of Irish society – who currently don’t feel like they’ve a political home?
In my own Cork South-West constituency, I’ve been doing work with the West Cork Traveller Group. The first ever group I brought up to Leinster House was one comprising of Traveller girls who are making a movie about having ambition and realising their dreams. They got to meet Senator Eileen Flynn who’s a huge role model for so many of them. It was one of my favourite things to have happened since I got involved in politics. We screened the film, Wheel Of Dreams, in the cinema in Clonakilty and to that event came along the local Guards, teachers and lots of other people. The key is meaningful engagement with communities who haven’t been engaged with before on that sort of level. There are problems in Irish politics of engaging women, not to mention people of colour, disabled people, Travelling communities. We have to dispel the notion that to get involved in politics or a political party you need some kind of special qualification or an invitation. Politicians shouldn’t be ‘these other people’. They can be you or people like you.

Are you in favour of gender quotas?
Yeah. I know they’re a blunt instrument that some people don’t like. They go, “Well, it shouldn’t happen like that. Women should prove themselves” but, look, we’ve been waiting a hundred years now for a bit of equality! It’s not that women aren’t good at politics – there are other structural barriers. I could go into loads of them, but what’s proven to work is gender quotas.

Will the Social Democrats have one in place for next year’s council elections?
Oh, we desperately need it. We’d have better policy-making. To give you an example – during the pandemic the pubs had reopened and there were still restrictions in maternity hospitals whereby women had to give birth on their own. If there were women making those decisions, I really don’t think that would have been the case. You know that phrase, “To be it, you have to see it”? Well, it was seeing Catherine and Róisín leading the Social Democrats that made me think, “There’s a place for me here.” That needs to be extended to other minority groups.

Another barrier to women getting involved in frontline politics - and I know you’ve experienced this yourself - is the abuse they invariably get on social media. Should the likes of Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg take more responsibility for what appears on their platforms?
Ah, yeah. We report things all the time to the platforms and nothing gets done about it. They have a bigger role to play in making it a safer place, absolutely. In terms of the targeted abuse of basically all women in politics, it’s important to say what’s going on so it can be addressed, but please, please don’t let it deter you from getting involved yourself. To give one example, I’m the only female elected representative among the 18 TDs and however many senators in Cork. It’s difficult I know, but the solution to all of this is more female TDs.

Elon Musk. Credit: James Duncan Davidson

Do you expect this Dáil to go full-term?
Your guess is as good as mine. I think they’ll call it after the budget because that’s when they’ll win the most votes. But I really don’t have any more insight than you.

Whenever the General Election takes place, there’s a reasonable chance that the Social Democrats will end up in coalition talks after it. Are you willing to do business with any of the parties?
Ultimately, I want to go into government. I didn’t go into politics to be in opposition. Things like the Sláintecare policy of building an Irish NHS are massively important to us. What we won’t do is go into government for the sake of it. I’ve no interest in jobs for the boys - and girls. It not like I can say “Yes or No” to your readers because it really depends on the mandate we have. If we can get a big return on TDs after this election, which is my ambition, we’ll likely have more impact on a Programme for Government. In terms of a possible coalition, I think it’s important to talk to every party and see what we agree on but, for example, Fine Gael are at the opposite end of the social spectrum to us. Our basic fundamental principles are different. From a social democratic perspective, a tax break isn’t a tax break if it erodes the basic services that underpin your quality of life. Fine Gael policy offers more tax breaks and less public services. In healthcare, access to treatment shouldn’t depend on how deep your parents’ pockets are as it currently is. In a political landscape like this you have to be open to conversation and compromise, but Fine Gael are the ones we’re least compatible with.

If the election goes the way the current polls are suggesting, it’s more likely you’ll be sitting down with Mary Lou than Leo or Micheál. Do you have a personal relationship with her?
I don’t know her really well. I’ve spoken to her on a couple of occasions and she’s really nice.

Have Sinn Féin done enough to address their past?
There are generational differences on how this is viewed. I was born in ’89 and finished school in 2008. We have no memory like our parents in terms of the things that happened. People my age are not engaged in that topic. They want better health, better housing, etc.

Do you believe in a 32 County Ireland?
If that is what the majority in the North want. Crucially it needs to be done in a way that keeps the peace. When the time is right, yes, we would like that. In the South, that involves quite a lot of thought and maturity because if we’re serious about a 32 County Ireland we need to respect people’s culture and heritage and be inclusive. Also, how could you ask someone from the North to be part of a united Ireland that doesn’t have a national health service or housing that’s affordable? These are all things that we need to work on.

Junior coalition partners usually get to insert two or three of their key policies into the Programme for Government. Which ones of yours will be you be pressing for?
Sláintecare is an absolute red line. As you probably know, Róisín Shortall is one of the architects of Sláintecare and chaired the committee on it. It’s a fundamental principle of social democracy. The current system is such a waste of taxpayers’ money. We’re the only country in western Europe without a national health service, plus we spend more per capita on our health service with the money going into the pockets of private companies. Both financially and from a point of principle, it’s a disgrace. Something else that’s non-negotiable is climate action. We’ll look back and think it laughable that we’re saying, “Should we or should we not reduce emissions in a certain sector?” We absolutely have to reduce emissions. It’s how do we do it? There’s no evidence from Sinn Féin policy that they’re serious about it at the moment. If you’ve a child with a disability or are facing eviction, climate change isn’t right now going to be top of your list – how can it be? – but people realise the existential threat it is and come election time will vote accordingly. Which brings me to our third red line – housing, which has to be declared a national crisis.

Seeing as you’ve brought it up, the Social Democrats have been accused of blocking 3,000 new homes for various reasons including the adverse effects they might have on the badger population. Are you guilty as charged?
What we’ve had for a long time with Fine Gael governments are bad planning laws and bad planning decisions. One of the things is build-to-rent apartments. They’re these shoeboxes. There’s no storage space, no community spaces, no playgrounds. They’re not liveable. They can never be purchased as homes. They’re not suitable for families. That’s what we’ve been objecting to. It’s framed by government as us objecting to housing because that’s the only defence they have at the moment. Whenever one of us stands up and asks a question, it’s always, “Well, you guys…” They’re scraping the bottom of the barrel.

You’ve called for a major hike in Vacant House Tax, which is currently set at 0.3%
Yes, what we want is a punitive tax. We suggested 10% at a time when house price inflation was also 10%. There are between 50,000 and 100,000 homes lying vacant and empty. Building homes is crucial but the quickest way to address the crisis is for people to live in those vacant ones.

Part of the reason that Nicola Sturgeon stood down as Scotland’s First Minister was the transgender prisoner controversy. How do you define a woman and a man?
We are who we are and that’s how it should be defined.

So it’s down to the individual to say what gender they are and have it legally enshrined?
Whatever they identify as, absolutely. Instead of me as a politician and you as a journalist talking about it, all of these conversations need to involve trans people. That’s really key. We’ve seen what’s happened in the UK and we don’t need for that to happen here.

Trans & Intersex Pride Dublin protest in solidarity for Scotland’s new Gender Recognition Bill block. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Is it appropriate for trans women inmates with a history of violence to be housed in women’s prisons?
At the outset, it’s important to note that trans people are far more likely to be the victims of violence rather than perpetrators. Trans people are a vulnerable minority who suffer disproportionate levels of violence, discrimination and abuse. In relation to jailing trans women, this is a situation that needs to be managed on a case-by-case basis. For example, if a prisoner has a history of violence against women, this is something that needs to be taken into account in decision making. The reality is that there can be safety concerns, whether a trans prisoner is jailed in a male or female prison. This is why it is so important that the Irish Prison Service has a policy in place for the management of trans prisoners.

Broadening that out, the Irish Prison Service has said that it can’t cope with the record number of inmates.
Yes, we should remember what makes prisons safe for everyone: an absence of overcrowding; single-cell accommodation; access to good quality and timely mental and physical healthcare; and opportunities to engage in activities like education and training. Currently, there is a huge overcrowding problem in Irish prisons, which is creating safety concerns for both prisoners and prison staff. Last month, the crisis was so acute that nearly two hundred prisoners did not have a bed and were sleeping on mattresses.

Currently, if a trans person is seeking gender realignment surgery they have to go to Dublin for psychiatric evaluation and Poland for the surgery, which is redolent of women having to travel to the UK for abortions. Will you seek to address that as part of the Sláintecare package?
Absolutely. Waiting-lists and people having to travel for care has been part of Irish life for far too long. You mention abortion – we’re still seeing people having to go abroad for that. People go to the North to have their cataracts done and the HSE refund the money for that. The whole thing is a mess, which needs transforming. The worst part of it is that we have a plan for Sláintecare cross-party agreed in 2019! It just requires the political will to implement it.

Why do you think Leo Varadkar is “reluctant and uncomfortable” about the proposed legislative changes to our abortion laws?
His comments combined with the Minister for Health saying that they would have hearings at the Health Committee, and all the other things that have been going on, suggest to me that the strategy is to delay the entire thing until after the next election – which is unforgivable. When I was canvassing for Repeal, even people who weren’t sure which way they were going to vote recognised the tragedy of people having to travel abroad in the case of fatal foetal abnormality. They’re forcing women to continue suffering because they don’t want to potentially experience the political fallout from it. The removal of the three-day wait period too – they could have said, “We have all of this evidence about our legislation that we didn’t have when we first introduced this law. Let’s use that to inform legislation.” Which do you think the electorate would appreciate – that or the Taoiseach’s feelings of reluctance and uncomfortableness?

Did you realise the hornet’s nest you were stirring up a couple of weeks ago when you asked Michéal Martin why TDs weren’t being allowed to quiz Niall Collins about his wife’s land acquisitions?
No, I wasn’t expecting the reaction I got from him. The point I was trying to make to the Tánaiste was about accountability, which from the opposition’s point of view is our job. It’s also what reassures the public that their TDs and other public representatives are not breaking any laws or doing things that fly in the face of the Local Government Act. The fact that there’s one rule for other TDs and a different rule for Niall Collins. I was just trying to get to the bottom of that – why won’t he take questions? Standards and accountability got a lot better after the financial crash, but now that’s slipping.

Was Micheál Martin right to use Dáil privilege to say what he did about The Ditch news site?
I didn’t think it was the right thing to say. It was deflecting from answering my question.

Micheál Martin

What do you make of The Ditch’s work?
They do really thorough, time-consuming work. They’re holding a lot of people to account. At the end of the day, they’re just printing the facts in relation to what they’re finding. That’s really important in terms of investigative journalism.

You’ve called for sex education in schools to be fact-based rather than dominated by religious teachings. Do you want a complete separation of church from education?
Yes.

Should the church be forced to pay their unpaid reparations to the victims of clerical abuse?
Yes.

Would you go as far as seizing part of their massive land-bank to obtain those monies?
Yes.

And using it to build houses on?
Yes. There have been constant revelations about systemic church abuse. They have so much land and properties and are refusing to pay compensation to people who’ve been subjected to vaccine trials or had children forcibly taken from them and sold for cash by the church. These are the worst human rights violations imaginable on an international scale. To have no accountability in that respect is an outrage.

The Government had promised to abolish Direct Provision by 2024 but, because of the influx of Ukrainian refugees, have put that on indefinite hold. Were they right to do so?
With 70,000 people from Ukraine and about 20,000 others, it’s understandable that they had to shift the goal-posts. What is not understandable is that we haven’t seen any new targets set. What’s the plan now? We still have a situation where one minister is overseeing things when what we need is a full government response. For example, Roderic O’Gorman put a call out to his fellow government ministers – “We need buildings” – and only one department came back with one building. There’s no joined up thinking.

Do you think that in the future we’ll recognise Direct Provision as the obscenity it is?
We don’t need hindsight for that. They’ve already been referred to as modern day Magdalene laundries.

What do you think when you see ‘concerned locals’ protesting against refugees being housed in their communities?
There’s a bit of a rise in the far-right at the moment. We have to recognise that it exists and that they’re trying to grow by preying on people’s fears and frustrations, particularly surrounding the housing crisis. It’s important to understand why people feel frustrated, to dispel the misinformation and give them the correct information. I do feel, though, that if you’re outside a centre where asylum-seeking refugees are being housed shouting “Out, out, out!” you need to reassess what’s happened. Anybody fleeing war being treated like that… Think about whether you want to be there.

With Russian spy ships being spotted off our coast and threats from the Russian ambassador after an Irish national died fighting for the Ukrainian Armed Forces, is it time for us to consider joining NATO?
There’s an important role for neutral countries and opinion poll after opinion poll in Ireland suggests that everybody would like to remain neutral. We do need more investment in our defence forces for peacekeeping, which our neutrality has never gotten in the way of. The rate of pay for our defence forces is absolutely terrible. We need to up our game in those areas.

You want government supports withdrawn from the greyhound industry. The FAI has made strong representations that the money should go to the League of Ireland. Would you be happy with that? And is there a case for banning greyhound racing altogether?
I am extremely concerned about ongoing State funding of the greyhound industry, which is in terminal decline and no longer enjoys wider public support. Ideally, I would like to see an end to greyhound racing due to animal welfare concerns. In the meantime, the Social Democrats have called for public funding for the sector – which increased to €18.2m this year – to be phased out over three years. I am in favour of diverting this money to animal welfare charities such as Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind, which receive a pittance from the Government by comparison. The FAI recently highlighted the unfairness inherent in the manner in which State revenues from the betting levy have been used to prop up greyhound racing. I hope their report sparks renewed debate on this issue.

Sadly, we’ll have to leave it there. Thanks for your time, Holly.
Thanks!

Holly Cairns. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.