MARY'S BACK PAGES

THE FIRST time I interviewed Mary Black for Hot Press she was in fighting form. Asked how she would respond if Sinead O'Connor stole her crown as Ireland's Female Vocalist of the Year, she asserted her determination categorically. "You can bet I'd put up one hell of a battle. I wouldn't lay down and die, I'll tell you that!"

Five years later - and ten years into her unparalleled success as a solo singer - Mary is still winning all manner of Best Female Vocalist awards and probably none too nervously watching as other Irish contenders, including Sinead, Enya, Maíre Ní Bhraonaín and Eleanor McEvoy reach for her title.

Back in 1991 Rolling Stone claimed that 'Mary Black is set to conquer a new world'. While there may be some way to go yet in terms of that ambition, the singer has since established herself as one of Ireland's most successful artists abroad, with her tours consistently selling out and her records shifting in considerable quantities in territories as far flung as Australia, Europe and Japan.

In 1987, Hot Press saw reason to celebrate an estimated 40,000 sales in Ireland for her album By The Time It Gets Dark. By way of contrast, her last album, Babes In The Woods has already sold 200,000 copies world-wide, 70,000 of which were sold in her homeland. Her latest album, The Holy Ground, released just three months ago, is already her fastest-ever selling album in this country and seems certain to surpass sales of her previous release in the long run.

And yet although the undeniably beautiful voice of Mary Black does sit at the centre of this remarkable success story, as with Enya, there is far more to the equation than that. If Enya's power base stems from her collaborative relationship with Nicky and Roma Ryan, so too is Mary Black supported by an effective team that includes husband/manager Joe O'Reilly, producer/songwriter/guitarist Declan Sinnott and an extended "family" of songwriters such as Noel Brazil and Jimmy McCarthy.

Indeed Mary's working relationship with Declan Sinnott has been absolutely vital to her success. Sinnott's reputation as a guitar layer is well established, his stint with Moving Hearts having encompassed some of that magnificent outfits finest moments. However with Mary, his status as a producer and musical director has come into focus, with the emphasis on a quality which is as hard to come by as it is to define: taste.

What's important is this: Declan Sinnott's approach has consistently proven just right, drawing the best out of Mary Black's exquisite voice and framing it unostentatiously but with a sureness of touch that suggests a major talent.

Sometimes, with chance as the midwife, these things just work out . . .

It was nearly 15 years ago, in The Meeting Place that Mary and Declan first met. On stage, Mary found herself singing 'Heart Like a Wheel' with Triona Ni Dhomhnaill and Linda Ronstadt. She made so deep an impression that it led to her soon being offered her own first solo gigs. But is it true that she was initially intimidated by Declan, because of his musical history in groups like Horslips?

"I was intimidated by everybody in those days!" says Mary, laughing. "I just wasn't very confident about what I had to offer, musically. I always felt inferior to other people they often used to think I was a right bitch because my defence system involved being really serious looking and snubbing people so they wouldn't see how low my self-esteem was.

"I remember meeting Frankie Gavin when I was busking around America with The Black Family and ignoring him and you know, sometimes I think he never forgave me! So it really did take me a while to feel comfortable around musicians. Basically because I had so much respect for them that I put musicians on a pedestal and downgraded myself to the same extent."

If her relationship with Declan Sinnott was ultimately to become a marriage made in some musician's heaven, then the priest who conducted the original ceremony must surely have been the right reverent Christy Moore?

"Definitely, but I'm not so sure how Christy'll respond to being called a priest," says Mary. "Yet it was Christy who called me at one point and asked me to do support for him and I said 'Jesus, I'd love to Christy, but I haven't got a guitarist!' He said, 'Declan's playing with me, I'm sure he'll work with you on a few songs.' So we got together that afternoon before the show and rehearsed three songs and that's how it really began for us. Especially in terms of the reaction of the audience, which was so good it was frightening."

Strengthening Christy Moore's somewhat dubious claim to heavenly status even more Declan elaborates: "It was also Christy who got us working together in the studio, with me producing. Mary originally wanted Christy himself to produce 'Rose of Allendale' but he said 'I think Declan'd do a great job.' I'd been working with him in terms of his singing and the way he recorded and I think he probably felt 'Jaysus, if I can get him working with Mary, I can get him off my back'! But, seriously, he knew I had ambitions to produce and would do that once I found the right voice for what I wanted to do. I found that in Mary."

Mary Black had realised early in life that she wanted to be a singer. Nevertheless, she used to be physically ill for a least two days before gigs and "very narky, and impossible to live with." Meeting Declan and doing gigs with him gave her the confidence she needed.

They performed as a duo up to, and beyond, her first solo album, in 1983, Mary Black. So what, specifically, was it about Mary's voice that so impressed Sinnott on that first night in The Meeting Place?

"Of the three singers, Triona, Linda Ronstadt and Mary, I immediately thought she was the best singer and the core quality was her ability to communicate," he explains. "I certainly wasn't thinking analytically or technically, in terms of her being able to reach certain notes or whatever. It was just that she got across to the audience and made me feel things."

Declan's own background had leant towards rock 'n' roll, with Horslips providing him with his first significant breakthrough onto the national stage. It's not an experience of which he's particularly proud.

"I honestly never thought Horslips were very good," he says smiling. "Especially in terms of folk music. None of those who played traditional instruments in Horslips were really traditional players. They were hopefuls, but they weren't on the button. They didn't know the idiom. Jimmy was probably closest to knowing the idiom. Chas hadn't a clue. He didn't know ornamentation, or any of that. But then nor had I a clue about any of this. I was, basically, a rock 'n' roller and a blues player who'd been listening to the Beatles and John Mayall and so on. So Horslips was definitely not an education for me in terms of getting to know, and love traditional Irish music."

Indeed, Declan acknowledges that his background in rock meant that he was most comfortable handling material like '(Sitting Here) Loving You' - which had been a hit for The Loving Spoonful - when it came to recording Mary's solo debut. But whereas he instinctively tuned in to its uptempo rhythms, Mary once revealed that in the beginning she felt less than fully at home singing uptempo songs.

"I still enjoyed doing 'Loving You', she recalls. "But to follow it with another fast song that suited me was not easy. Without The Fanfare has a few uptempo songs on it but I don't think they work as well as 'Loving You'. And the next album, By The Time It Gets Dark, only has slow songs. I think that we've really developed in this area over the last two albums. Or, that I have. But part of my problem was that when we'd finish an album Declan would say, 'we have to get a fast song' and I'd say 'fuck that. What's the point in us choosing a song just because it's fast?'

"That's not how I choose songs. Always, my choice of material comes from the fact that a song means something to me, that I feel it."

Mary Black also admits that the more 'contemporary' feel of Without The Fanfare was intended to declare: "I am not a folk singer." Is it true that a similar desire not to be labelled a singer of Irish ballads led to Joe O'Reilly starting up Dara Records specifically for Mary because she wouldn't record on his own family label, Dolphin?

"Yeah! But the point is that there is a huge difference between being a folk singer and being a ballad singer," she explains. "And the thing about Joe's label was that it had ballad singers like Paddy Reilly and so on. I definitely didn't want to be labelled in that area. And even on the first album I made a point of recording something like a Billie Holiday song because I never wanted to be labelled as any one style of singer at all. And I still don't want to be."

With her solo career already up and running, Mary Black received an invitation to join one of the top names in traditional music, De Danann. With the success of the Irish Molly album, which featured Maura O'Connell, the group were riding the crest of a wave. Maura left to go solo and so . . .

"I originally got a phone call from Alex Finn," Mary recalls, "and it was great being asked because Declan and I weren't doing much at the time. Also it was a great opportunity to join but not front a band.

"I was warned by a previous singer with De Danann not to let anyone walk all over me," she adds. "So I went in with my sleeves rolled up and my fists clenched and we certainly had to iron out a few problems in the first few weeks. If Frankie, or any of them, said 'boo' to me I'd say 'don't you fucking talk to me like that'. I was a devil! I remember throwing a brandy glass at Frankie - and it was full! But we sorted out our differences, as we had to, because he was the one I had most problems with. After that there was mutual respect."

Throwing a brandy glass at Frankie Gavin would suggest that by this stage Mary had outgrown any hero-worship of musicians!

"I guess I had, yeah," she says, laughing. "But you must remember that in that case I was at an advantage because I had been warned and didn't have to discover the things for myself - whereas the person before me did have to. And overall, my experience with De Danann really has stood to me. Musically, in terms of being on the road working hard, and a lot of hard drinking. It really made me grow up quickly."

At the time, Mary used to do six or seven traditional songs per show. Surely she must have been artistically frustrated with De Danann?

"The great thing was that, because I only had a set number of songs, I learned how to really hold onto an audience," she recalls. "Frankie and the lads would really impress the audience and I had to go for the jugular every time to match that. That definitely helped me develop what Declan described as my ability to communicate. But, yes, doing only folk songs did leave me feeling desperately frustrated, musically.

"Fortunately, I was gigging with Declan too, to a degree, and we recorded Without The Fanfare during that time. In fact, part of the reason we probably went too far on that album, in terms of showing people I'm not just a folk singer was because I was so restricted, musically, in De Dannan.

"That feeling began to grow in the second year and by the third year I was set to explode. Particularly being confined to one area, to music that I never really wanted to do. Even when we did the rare version of a Beatles' song, it was still a folk version and that wouldn't have satisfied me at all, to be doing just that, at that point."

Whatever Mary's reservations in relation to the use of a band on Without The Fanfare, it is the album on which we see, for the first time, the work of that nucleus of songwriters - such as Noel Brazil and Jimmy McCarthy - which has since become a cornerstone of her career.

"That's why I think Without The Fanfare is a really important album in terms of the evolution of all the other albums that followed," suggests Mary. "With that album, more than the first, I feel we really begin to express ourselves more."

Declan is nodding his head in agreement.

"I agree but whereas I don't like the sound of the first album I feel that the recordings themselves, on Without The Fanfare, got too sophisticated, too far removed from the raw, original tracks we set down, using just drums, bass, acoustic guitar and Mary's voice. That's why we later re-recorded things like 'Ellis Island' and 'There's A Train That Leaves Tonight'."

"But I also love something like 'Without The Fanfare' itself," Mary counters, "which we've begun to do again lately. "We rarely do anything from the first album but that song is one of the songs that did get better after we did it more on stage, after we lived with it for a while and got it back to its roots."

That said, Mary disagrees with the Neil Young approach to recording, where the predominant pattern in rock is reversed, with Young extensively gigging new material before he records it.

"Well, I have mixed feelings about that," she says. "With Babes In The Wood we had serious problems with songs like 'The Dimming Of The Day' because we'd been doing them on stage and they'd become stale for us. 'Bright Blue Rose' was a nightmare for us in the studio. Whereas new songs can really inspire you, like when you connect with a song for the first time in the studio and everyone else does.

"That's how it was for a lot of the songs on The Holy Ground. In fact the hardest song to record was the one song we'd done before, 'Golden Threads'."

Both Mary and Declan agree that the third album, By The Time It Gets Dark, may have worked because alongside the highest possible quality Irish songs they also used compositions by the likes of Sandy Denny, Ewan McColl and Richard Thompson.

"That album, to me, is still completely successful on its own terms," says Declan. "More than any, it was one that just sat right. It was a moment of perfection. I really believe that."

Mary agrees and adds that many of her fans may feel the same way about By The Time It Gets Dark: "What I think happened with that album is that the confusion had abated, and the lack of focus that hangs over Without The Fanfare was gone. Suddenly, Declan and I realised we both had a concept, a view of music that we totally shared. We finally knew exactly what we were looking for."

Which was?

"It's hard to describe," says Declan. "But the song 'Katie' probably captures what we wanted, in its essence. Mary really wanted to record that song yet I didn't like the chord sequence at all. It hinged on the punch line 'Come running home again, Katie' and had an accidental in it, which meant that the chords almost had to go in a certain direction. So I changed that line of melody and then changed all the chords and finally it fell into place for me."

"Before that, the song was actually hurting you each time you heard it. But you cleared that change with Jimmy, didn't you?," says Mary, directly addressing Declan. Somewhat sheepishly Declan replies, "No. I played it for him after it was finished!"

If ever Michael D. Higgins needs evidence to support the view that, in contemporary music, a producer can fulfil as vital a creative role as a composer , then surely this is it. Likewise, in relation to other tracks on By The Time It Gets Dark, such as 'Leaving The Land' and 'There Is A Time' where Sinnott's minimalist arrangements and his own guitar line layer further musical poetry onto each song. How would Declan describe his approach to producing and arranging a track such as the latter?

"On a song like that you just put a few chords to it, because it already is so powerful in itself," he says. "Arranging is needed more, maybe, when there is less of a song to work on. And tracks like that did make me realise that sometimes Mary and Pat and myself do make up a kind of musical whole, where nothing else is needed. We still work together on this basis when we do radio slots, for example."

"And we really are complete with just one guitar, the accordion and the three voices," says Mary. "I really enjoy working like that and would love to do a tour with just the three of us. That's not to take away from the rest of the band, but there really is a purity to the music we make together and that's where I feel I am at my best. And, even now, looking down at the titles on By The Time It Gets Dark I'd have to say that was the real beginning for me, that's where our story really began."

In the period following By The Time It Gets Dark - and during the lead up to the next album - No Frontiers - Mary Black's backing musicians also became a band in the best and broadest sense.

"Up until then it was the basic musicians, supplemented by session players, which is basically what Noel and Pat were at that time," says Mary. "But Pat's playing, for example, then brought me to another height from a band point-of-view. As a singer, when you hear something beautiful you can't help but be moved by it and try to answer that in some way and this, I feel, is how I responded when Pat came into the band. That had a dramatic effect on how I sing and how I began to look at songs and develop them - which really influenced the shape of No Frontiers.

"Mind you, that album was also made during the roughest period in our time together," she says reflectively. "Not just in relation to me and Dec but generally. We were going through a really difficult period when we were recording No Frontiers. There were personality clashes and problems I'd rather not go into. But, the point is that when we were recording that album everybody was completely fired with emotion and it was a dark period in our lives."

So, how often have Mary and Declan, specifically, had their major disagreements, artistic or otherwise?

"Not often," replies Mary. "We've had one major break but that had as much to do with Declan's health as it had to do with anything else. He needed a break and went to Cork to live and we split up for about a year. That was after Without The Fanfare. We tried to put a band together but couldn't do it as Dec felt he was going down blind alleys and because of his physical state at the time, couldn't deal with that. It really wasn't so much of a disagreement between us. There haven't been that many major disagreements at all."

One area in which Mary Black and Declan Sinnott more often agree than disagree is in relation to selecting the songs which Mary records.

"I chose most of the songs on the last album and don't really remember ever having a strong disagreement about any song," Mary explains. "If Declan is keen on a song that I'm not too gone on, like, say, 'Treasure Island', that often can be just a mater of my not liking the words. And if he really is convinced about the worth of a song I'll give it my best shot just in case there is something in it I'm missing. I respect his opinion enough to want to pursue whatever suggestions he makes."

In terms of a song like 'The Shadow', from No Frontiers, for example, whose choice was that?

"That would be my area," says Declan. "I would know most of the songwriters from working with people like Jimmy McCarthy, for three years. So, a lot of the time I would be trying to promote these people. Not just for their sakes but because I get this feeling like 'there's a song here by this guy and it's great but nobody has ever heard it.' It's that kind of enthusiasm more than anything else. And, in terms of the Shadow, I just loved that lyric."

When Declan says he is trying to "promote" certain songwriters does that ever involve pushing songs that they may be able to get good deals on because the songwriters are not always that well known?

"The record label might offer them a publishing deal but it's just an offer, there's none of that 'either-you-give-us-the-publishing-rights-or-it-won't-be-recorded-by-Mary' nonsense," he says. "I know well that this goes on in the music business because it has been done to me. But that's the opposite to the way we work and we're proud of the fact that we do our business honourably. And, that we avoid, as much as possible, dealing with people who are sharks in that, or any sense. That's where our base, in Dara Records, makes us very lucky, in that it is very much a cottage industry."

"Sure," Mary adds "but others may say we're very unlucky because we never got the big, major record company deal. To some people that's the be-all, and end-all of everything but not to me. I really do feel we are lucky the way things have fallen. Maybe things would have gone a different way if there had been more big record companies interested but, on the other hand, they then probably would have wanted us to change the music completely to accommodate a world market.

"With a licensing deal we don't have to do that. And in terms of the songwriters we choose to use I'm very proud of the fact that much of the material we have recorded has been by Irish songwriters. Apart from, 'I Say A Little Prayer', everything on No Frontiers was written by songwriters who are Irish. But that's not so much the reason we chose the songs in the first place, it's because the standard is so high and so many songs just suit my voice, and my outlook, so well.

"The same is true of Babes in the Wood which is an album that I think really still stands up well because of that reason and the quality of the songs overall."

Is it true that Mary's last Hot Press interview, which focused specifically and in-depth on Babes in the Wood, angered songwriter Noel Brazil?

"Yeah, I was in the shits over that but he is a reasonable guy so we sorted that!" she says, laughing. "But he was annoyed that I said that sometimes we change his songs slightly because we feel there is a lack of melody in Noel's songs. He felt that was giving people the impression that we took his songs and re-wrote them, which is not the case. In fact we change very little these days, whereas earlier we did."

With the level of success that Mary has experienced, is there a danger that they might stick to a tried and trusted formula, and thereby minimise the sense of adventure which is vital to continuing to make great music?

"Actually, I believe that on this album we changed our approach in many ways," Mary reflects. "We'd a different drummer and we used drums on all the tracks, which we didn't normally do. We had a string quartet and used different material, like 'Flesh And Blood', which a lot of people didn't like at first, saying 'Is that Mary Black?'. So I don't think we're stuck inside some kind of formula."

"And a song like the new single, 'Summer Sent You' has strong sensual connotations, which is not something Mary has done before," Declan adds. "The same applies to 'The Lovin' Time'. So I, too, can't accept the accusation of 'sameness'. And the point is that The Holy Ground is our fastest-selling album ever."

As if walking in on cue, Joe O'Reilly arrives and sits in on the final lap of this interview. Mary elaborates on her original goals in relation to The Holy Ground.

"My attitude to traditional music has changed completely over the years," she says. "So much so that I desperately wanted a traditional song on this album. It's as though all the touring I did over the last few years, which kept me out of Ireland, really helped me rediscover the country and its music and its people.

"So I wanted something intrinsically Irish on the album and went for The Holy Ground because it reminded me of all those emigrants I saw living abroad who really are heartbroken and long to come home but can't, for one reason or another.

"We did a gig last night in Wales and did the whole twelve tracks from The Holy Ground in order to get the album down on video," she adds. "Four or five of the songs we'd never played live, so it was challenging, particularly working with the string quartet and so on. But the response was as great as that first night Declan and I played with Christy Moore. And I had been concerned about the audience, thinking it's hard on them, playing them 12 new songs, a whole new album. But so many of them were singing along on all the songs and loved what was happening.

"So, if a relatively new album can get to people as quickly, and as deeply, as The Holy Ground obviously has, we know we must be doing something right. And this is particularly exciting to me because The Holy Ground captures where we are at right now, not where we were ten years, or even five years ago. And I think it really shows how much we've grown as musicians, as a band, as performers in that time."

Despite their continuing success together, does Mary ever consider moving away from Declan and her 'family' of songwriters, and trying something completely different for at least one album?

"I think that's something that could very possibly happen," she says. "And we have the kind of relationship where I feel there would be no problem with that. I enjoyed recording 'Only A Woman's Heart', with Eleanor McEvoy. We were in the studio doing that and Declan wasn't there. So I really would like to do more things myself, like say a complete album of women's songs by the newer contemporary female songwriters such as Mary Chapin Carpenter. I also quite fancy doing an album of traditional songs, believe it or not. I definitely would like to do some kind of project like that in the future."

What about A Woman's Heart Volume 2? The original concept was the brainchild of Joe O'Reilly. So, will there be a second volume and will Mary be involved?

"We put out A Trad Heart a couple of weeks ago as a kind of follow-up but I suppose there also has to be A Woman's Heart Volume 2 and there probably will be," says Joe. "For commercial reasons it has to be made, though I would like to do something different this time. What, exactly, I don't yet know."

"I personally feel it would be lovely to just leave things as they stand," Mary says. "The whole thing, for me, has been milked to death and though it's been very beneficial for all involved I think it should be left at that. I would be reluctant to go at it a second time around.

"Joe is talking about Volume 2 but I'm not so sure that I'll be on it. I'd be far more interested in doing my own projects whether it is, or isn't along those lines. I've never seen any point in just repeating yourself."