OUT OF THE CLOSET

“The Foxes are the hunted species,” says Johnny Fox. “The family coat of arms is that we’re rather cute. We’re inclined to stay ahead of the pack and see the attacks coming from various different quarters. Sometimes, it’s nice to sit up on the bank and let the hounds go by.”

Johnny Fox is not related to Tom Foxe, the other independent TD, the one from Longford/Roscommon. He is, he declares, “only related through drink” to Johnny Fox’s Pub in Glencullen. He has never even heard of the Thin Lizzy album, Johnny The Fox.

What Johnny Fox undeniably is, however, is both an independent TD for Wicklow and a uniquely Irish patchwork of curious contradictions. A forty-six year old farmer and member of the Church of Ireland, from just outside Bray, Fox has spent fifteen years in politics, thirteen of them as a Fianna Fáil representative. Indeed, for most of his life, his intense loyalty to The Party was only surpassed marginally by his legendary devotion to Gaelic football and rugby.

Then, in 1992, he decided to leave Fianna Fáil for good. The split came after a bitter candidate-selection battle that eventually saw Fox being denied the place on the FF ticket to which he believed his years of local service had entitled him. He stood as an independent in that year’s general election and won what had traditionally been the second Fianna Fáil seat in Wicklow, unseating Dick Roche in the process.

Fox now insists that it would be “a big retrograde step” for him to ever return to the Fianna Fáil fold. In the past two years, he has assembled a formidable election machine with “active units” in every corner of the county and a membership that has attracted personnel from the rank and file of most of the local parties. In the Dáil, though, he has been a reasonably consistent supporter of the coalition government.

In Wicklow, Fox’s profile is high. He was, for instance, a major player in the hammering out of the compromise that was recently reached over the controversial interpretative centre at Luggala. Nationally, his only tilt at the headlines came some weeks ago when he came out with some of the most blatantly homophobic statements ever heard from an elected representative in this country.

During a break in the recent International Lesbian and Gay Organisation conference, a group of delegates paid a visit to Glendalough for an open-air picnic. As soon as word of this seeped out, an assortment of headbangers started phoning the local radio station to complain about these homosexuals “polluting” the purity of the Wicklow environment and about the wasting of taxpayers’ money (it was partly sponsored with EC funds) on a conference such as this in the first place. As the storm quickly overspilled its teacup, it soon emerged that one of the loudest voices being raised in denunciation was that of Johnny Fox, TD.

Holding court in his unofficial headquarters, The Ardmore bar beside Bray Town Hall, pint of Guinness in hand, a rolled up copy of The Bray People in his pocket, Johnny Fox is unrepentant about his outburst.

Liam Fay: What exactly is your problem with homosexuality?

Johnny Fox: It is alien to the common good. In my view, it is something that needs to be roundly discouraged rather than have taxpayers’ money spent on promoting it. I’m not God and I’m not playing the conscience of the nation but I firmly believe that when the behaviour itself, and I use the word behaviour in inverted commas, when the behaviour of people in that particular social area becomes public, it is offensive to the rest of the nation.

Why?

I just believe it is. There is no basis for it in nature. Quite frankly, there is not only no basis for it in human nature but in nature generally. The definition of nature is recreation, the recreative cycle, in order to protect the survival of the species whether it be plant, animal or human. Natural pollination and the recreative process. And, in my view, what is happening in the homosexual area is the antithesis of nature.

Isn’t the nature argument usually a smokescreen for what is essentially an aversion to homosexuality based on religious grounds?

No, not in my case. As it happens, the church would support me in my view but I’m not necessarily expounding the church’s view. That’s a question of morals and religious ethics and I’m not into that.

Does the idea of two men kissing disgust you personally?

Yes. The plumbing details of homosexual acts do revile me, I’d have to say.

Do you think there are many of your constituents in Wicklow who get up to such ‘disgusting’ activities?

(Laughs) I haven’t the faintest idea what the percentage of gay people in Wicklow is. You get all sorts of jokes about Wicklow sheep farmers and all that, but I don’t know. What I do know is that medical science says to us that the amount of people in the world generally who are genuinely sexually disoriented is far, far less than the numbers the gay rights people would have us believe.

Ten per cent is the generally accepted figure.

I don’t believe that for a moment. I think it’s probably something in the order of one in five to ten thousand people who are gay. After that, I believe it’s a novelty and an acquired syndrome which people are inclined to seek after these days.

So you’re saying that homosexuality is some sort of fad?

I do believe that it’s a trendy thing. I don’t want to be depicted as some right wing crank but I genuinely believe that, to a large degree, it is sought after by funseekers or people who haven’t gotten the same amount of kick out of the other things that are followed now, particularly by young people.

Do you think that gays should be given some sort of medical treatment to ‘straighten’ them out?

In so far as medical treatment can be used as a cure then certainly, but I’m not sure if medical treatment is necessarily a cure. If my figures are right, and I believe they are, then we’re talking about the very few people who have a difficulty. They need a lot of sympathy and help and they need consideration and they need to be left alone. I don’t want to exploit or discriminate or point the finger at anybody but what I am opposed to, and what I believe is happening, is that this is being promoted as a way of life.

Who is doing this promoting?

Obviously the gay rights association. We had the organisation of a conference there in Dublin (the ILGO conference) that saw £100,000 approximately of taxpayers’ money being spent on it. It’s not an argument whether it’s German taxpayers or Irish taxpayers, it’s taxpayers’ money. I’m rather annoyed that that should happen because it is promoting this and bringing it to the attention of an awful lot of people who maybe are vulnerable and innocent and who may become part of it.

Are you against the spending of taxpayers’ money on AIDS awareness campaigns?

Oh, absolutely not. Sex education and AIDS awareness is in the common good, it’s the health of the nation. I have no problem with that.

You and your wife have one son and two daughters. If one of them were to come to you and say that he or she were gay how would you react?

I would probably want to know firstly the origins of it. If one of my own kids said they were gay I would like to know that it was something they were born with rather than something that they had acquired. If they had only acquired it, I would be very upset and hurt. If they were born with it, I would have to accept it. But, as I have said, my view of this is that the amount of people born with this is absolutely minuscule. I am not a gay basher. I haven’t called them anything unkind. A lot of people are going around calling them all sorts of vicious names – I’m not into that. I just think that this is something that needs to be discouraged and it should be discouraged.

In the context of your views on homosexuality, what did you make of the way in which the Emmett Stagg affair was resolved?

It wasn’t resolved. To this day, it hasn’t been resolved. It is something that is unfortunate for the individual concerned and I have no wish to stigmatise the Minister at all but I have called for his resignation. I got a response from the Taoiseach at the time saying that he is considering the matter but that was several months ago and Mr. Stagg still remains in office. I certainly have no desire to prolong the Minister’s difficulty but I believe he should have resigned at the time and I still believe that. Because of his office, the particular activity in which he was engaged would lead to a security risk. It is incompatible with the office of Minister for State.

So, you think he’s unfit for public office?

I don’t believe he should be a member of government.

If he’d been with a woman in the Phoenix Park, would you feel the same way?

One has to take into account that the office of Minister for State is one of the highest offices accorded to people in this land. The trust of the nation is bestowed upon you. Any behaviour of that nature is untenable with the office.

Particularly because there was a homosexual dimension to it?

Particularly, yes, but even if it had been heterosexual I would also demand his resignation.

Do you think Stagg got off lightly from the media?

I think he did get off lightly from the media. Had it been a woman, the media who are sympathetic generally to the homosexual people would have made far more of it. I’m sure they would have barked louder than they did. Some of the media reports almost lauded his actions, saying it was a new dawning for Ireland. I couldn’t comprehend that. There’s no way I could agree with it.

Why do you think the media were as sympathetic as you say they were?

Because the media are now into the novelty along with a lot of young people. The media are into the novelty of reporting this. They had been essentially conservative and stuck-in-the-mud, if you wish, for a great many years and, now that we have legalised homosexuals and their relevant activities, they’re having a field day. Some of the articles written about the Emmett Stagg affair were laughable.

For example?

I think it was the Sunday Independent had someone writing to the effect of, “Thank God, Emmett Stagg has brought us into a new dawn, the old dark days are gone.” Just because Emmett Stagg happened to be chasing somebody around the Phoenix Park, the media saw that as their breakthrough, their green light to go ahead and say oh, we’re totally liberated now.

Do you believe you have much support among other TDs for your stance on this issue?

I got a lot of support from the electorate. There were two or three TDs who spoke out. Noel Davern called for Stagg’s resignation also and there were two or three others.

It’s not exactly a huge Dáil movement, is it?

No, it’s not. In Leinster House generally, there is a huge body of people, in all parties, who are afraid to speak their minds, because of the fear that they might offend what they consider to be their bosses, the party leadership. I know for a fact from speaking personally with a considerable number of TDs that they totally agree with my sentiments. They just haven’t got the wherewithal to voice that publicly.

There’s a big test on the horizon for these TDs with the forthcoming divorce referendum. What’s your attitude to divorce?

Where a marriage has broken down irretrievably and where it has been proven that there is no point in people staying together the arrangements should be made in order to let people live their lives out, with other partners if necessary. I would favour divorce but I’m not going to give out a blank cheque. I would want to see the precise legislation first.

It has been suggested that a number of backbench Fianna Fáil TDs are so strongly opposed to divorce that they may rebel on the issue. Is that likely in your opinion?

(Laughs) I have no faith in Fianna Fail backbenchers to rebel with any gusto about anything. I know for a fact that a lot of them were against the decriminalisation (of homosexuality) bill but they still voted for it.

Do you think Fianna Fáil backbenchers in general are a spineless bunch?

I do, I do, I have to say. If the upper echelons of the party make a decision to go one way then it’s like a trip to Mecca for the rest of them. They ask how high should they jump and how many bags do they want full. You have sixty-seven Fianna Fáil TDs, ten of them in government and, give or take a couple, you have maybe fifty TDs who are just there for the ride. They’re never heard tell of from one election to the next as far as any worthwhile contribution to the nation is concerned. I’m probably in the Dáil as an independent TD because I couldn’t go along with that.

So, nothing has changed since the days of Charlie Haughey’s Uno Duce, Uno Voce?

It’s no better now. They have adopted the Haughey syndrome in terms of discipline or call it what you wish. The don’t-rock-the-boat system. Charlie and PJ Mara may not be there but the “Boss” syndrome is still there which is very, very unfortunate as far as anything democratic is concerned.

And in terms of its adoption of the so-called ‘liberal agenda’ do you believe that Fianna Fáil has lost its way?

I have no doubt about it that the bedrock Fianna Fáil support is very perturbed by the direction the party is being taken by the hierarchy, particularly in terms of the liberal agenda. It is obviously something that is alien to the Irish way of life as Fianna Fáil people would know it. I think even some of the Labour people, who are very sound voters to be fair them, also feel that this particular agenda may have gone too far.

Do you feel that the views you represent are closer to the way the traditional Fianna Fáil voter is thinking at the moment?

Yes. I would like to think that my views are mildly conservative. I certainly wouldn’t like to be cast in the role of a radical right wing politician, because I’m not. I’m more interested in a sort of mild conservative politics which is probably the best thing for the common good of this country.

What’s your position on abortion?

I am opposed to abortion on any grounds.

Even in the case of rape?

Absolutely, yeah. We were just talking a few moments ago about human beings and their different ways of life, a child conceived in rape has no control over its destiny. It is a human being and should be allowed to be born.

What about the fourteen year old in the X Case, was the Attorney General right to try and stop her leaving the country for an abortion?

That is a very difficult case but I don’t think that the child should have been aborted. My own view is that whatever medical attention is necessary for this nation, it should be done here. When it comes to the question of the life of the mother, that is an area where medical advice only can really give you a definitive view. It is unfair to ask lay people to express professional opinions about the life of the mother but the best advice available to me on this issue down through the years is that there is no likelihood of any risk to the mother because of the treatment currently available.

Would you have been in favour of stopping that fourteen year old from travelling to England for an abortion?

It was an unfortunate saga that that girl had to go to England for treatment. Treatment in this country would have consisted of help and care in order that her child could come into the world. When one looks at the great people down through the years who were born out of wedlock for one reason or another, you just have to say that that child should have been born. Nobody had any right to kill that child.

Should the full force of the law have been employed to physically stop her from travelling to England then?

That is something that needs to be examined. The passage of free travel for people to any country in the world is probably something that should be sacrosanct. Nobody should be stopped going anywhere but we as a nation should not have the like of those cases aborted. It’s a complex area. She shouldn’t have been stopped but, at the same time, I don’t think the child should have been aborted.

Catholic bishops have complained that there is no longer a political party that represents their teaching on social issues yet, in your public pronouncements, you as a Church of Ireland man seem a lot closer to their idea of what a good Catholic politician should be. I get the impression that you relish that role.

Well, it’s funny, I was at a funeral recently and the old parish priest, a very quiet man who seldom speaks other than on the pulpit, shook hands and said that it was an irony that it took a Protestant to uphold the morals of the Catholic church in Ireland. It was a bit of a joke but there you are. My views are my views. I come from a very poor background and I was brought up in a tradition of the kind of values that I’m expounding now. If they happen to coincide with the views of the Catholic church then so be it and I’m delighted to have the Catholic church say that. There are obviously some areas where I disagree with them though.

Like where, for instance?

I disagree with their view on divorce. There are circumstances when it does have to be considered, where a marriage has broken down irretrievably. I think that condoms are part of modern day living and we have to accept that if we are to be realistic about the modern day world. I think that the Catholic church’s attitude in regard to sex education needs a lot of brushing up in order to step into the present day world with all its risks in regard to diseases and that. I also don’t agree with celibacy for priests. I think it is the natural progression for man to take himself a wife. I don’t think that God would want it any other way. God did make Adam and Eve, you know, though the homosexuals would have you believe that it was Adam and Steve (laughs).

What’s your solution to the Northern Ireland problem?

Build a wall around it and float it out into the North Sea, that’s the only solution I have to it. I dunno, the solution to the Northern Ireland problem is probably one that will only be got by British withdrawal, at the end of the day. But there has to be major recognition of the traditions on the island. The Unionists are part of Ireland, a big part of Ireland.

As a Protestant living in the South, would you recommend it to your Northern counterparts?

The Unionist people would have absolutely nothing to fear from a situation in which they were governed either jointly or by Europe. There is no realistic prospect of the Republic taking over the North and running it against their will. That will never happen and can never happen. Anybody who thinks it can happen is only codding themselves. We will have to be run by consensus and we will have to learn to live with one another.

As a TD representing a county that depends heavily on tourism, you don’t think a lot of Bord Fáilte, do you?

I don’t think anything of Bord Fáilte and even less of MERTO (Midlands Eastern Regional Tourist Organisation–the administrative wing of Bord Fáilte in the area). They are both absolutely useless.

Why specifically?

We have this town of Bray with a population of 30,000 people, the gateway to the county for people coming down from Dublin town, and we only have a tourist office which is hidden and open for very short periods of the year. In Arklow, which is the main town in the South, there is only a caravan offering tourist information. It’s only open for three weeks in the year and is located on a footpath which means it’s essentially in the way. And, in Glendalough where at least 150,000 people come annually, there is no tourist office at all. There is a £2 million interpretative centre there run by the OPW and they won’t let a scrap of tourist information in. There’s nothing in it but an audio-visual thing and a few pieces of what they call culture. I am not impressed at all with MERTO. They have a couple of representatives here and I don’t know where they might as well be but they’re bringing no tangible benefit to Wicklow. And this is the most magnificent county in Ireland.

Returning to the gay issue for a moment, it could be argued that two men kissing each other is a more healthy example to young people than two teams of fifteen men on a football field knocking lumps out of each other.

I think that the physical contact there doesn’t bear comparison, no matter what way you look at it. Fifteen men sports in this country are either rugby or Gaelic and I don’t think that the great majority of people in this country would support that particular scenario as a spectacle.

There was a spate of bizarre incidents at GAA football matches in Wicklow a while ago with, for instance, referees being locked in the boots of cars by angry supporters. What the hell is it with Wicklow GAA fans?

Well, I’ll be very frank with you, the system of picking referees is appalling. Nobody could condone anybody being abused or locked in boots but it has to be said, in fairness to all those sportsmen and women in this county who participate in GAA games, there has been a desperate scenario in which people who never played the game or knew the game have gone into administering the rules. Something should be done to eliminate those people before they start some sort of riot on the football field. Essentially, it’s a self-inflicted wound by the GAA, particularly in Wicklow where we have these dire referees who have absolutely no knowledge of the game.

Referees are never popular but it’s only in Wicklow that they are locked in car boots.

Maybe you hear about it more because Wicklow gets more press than other counties. We seem to be an inflammatory county, press-wise. If it’s not Luggala, it’s referees in boots. I can only speak for Wicklow and definitely here there are some referees who should not be at large.

They should not be at large!!! Are you suggesting that they should be dispensed with in a more permanent way?

No, no, no, but they certainly shouldn’t be out administering the rules of a game they never played and know very little about. They’re only inciting the worst possible behaviour in those people who are out there playing.

Despite being the strong sporting county you say it is, Wicklow hasn’t won very much in recent times, has it?

No, it hasn’t but it never won much.

Isn’t it time you just packed in team sports altogether then?

No, it’s time we started believing in ourselves as a people. We have a terrible syndrome here to believe in the outsider, particularly in the town of Bray where I come from. There is a huge cosmopolitan community here, people who have no great affiliations with the county itself. Therefore we haven’t got the spirit of a county as a people. We have to develop the basic spirit of saying yes, we will win! Too many occasions, we’ve gone out to put up a good show and come back second. Football itself is a game played on a nine inch pitch between the ears. Until we get it into our heads that we will win, then we won’t. We’re a very docile and frivolous type of people that way. It’s a shame.

You have said that you believe that much of the momentum for the ‘liberal agenda’ originates within the European Community headquarters and that reforms such as the decriminalisation of homosexuality will eventually destroy the fabric of this country. What exactly do you mean by that?

It was quite preposterous in my view that David Norris should take us along to the European Court and force us to change the law on homosexuality against the wishes of the Irish nation. And, I believe it was against the wishes of the Irish nation.

But the European Court found that Ireland’s anti-gay laws contravened the Convention on Human Rights. Do you believe that Ireland should continue to deny people their human rights?

That is their view of what constitutes human rights. If you take the Isle of Man, for instance. The Isle of Man is not in the EEC. It has its own laws, some would say they’re draconian but if you take it as a tourist resort little country, it is an example of how a country like that should be run. People can go there and enjoy themselves without wrecking the place. I believe that most countries should retain a greater degree of autonomy like the Isle of Man but they’re not doing that. The EEC are getting right into the heart of social affairs and, yes, destroying the basic social fabric of Irish life. It’s not good for this country.

How will this ‘destruction of the social fabric’ manifest itself?

The liberal agenda is destroying the nation generally. You only have to look at the European experience. Look at cities like Berlin and Amsterdam and Brussels and these places. They are rife with all sorts of undesirable social habits, not to mention the amount of sexually transmitted diseases, prostitution, homosexuality, gay bars and all that. It’s evident to the average person that that is an undesirable way for a country to go and that is where the liberal agenda leads. We’re selling the country and our culture down the swannee.

But surely outside influences are inevitable in these days of global media and much greater freedom of movement. Or, perhaps, you would favour something being done to halt the dilution of our culture by, say, tightening up our immigration laws?

Well, it’s difficult to make an omelette without breaking an egg in this regard. I think that most of the cultural shocks came in New York and London and Paris because they were the main cities of interest to young people. Therefore, you had people coming from very impoverished nations into these big cities. It didn’t happen, for instance, in Tokyo where they had immigration laws that prevented it. It was the place to be in London twenty years ago and it was the place to be in New York and Paris and they have come in. To a lesser degree in Paris but there is a good few Algerians and Africans there. But I think, probably, it’s not likely to happen in Ireland.

More immigrants are coming to Ireland these days because it is increasingly difficult for them to get into other countries.

I know there is a few, probably because we’re in this EEC. It’s crazy. I think it would be undesirable. I don’t know how you’d go about stopping it and maintain a degree of human rights but it is undesirable and should be discouraged. Britain is ridiculous at the moment. You get people with the darkest skin and the most African names running for Britain in athletics and competing in boxing and all the rest of it. And they have absolutely no connection, or very little connection, with the country a generation up. I’m not saying that this is something that should be handled in a heavy-handed fashion. But maybe it could be handled in a diplomatic fashion that we would have a limit on that type of influx of people. It’s not healthy for them and not healthy for us.