As Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Pippa Hackett is one of only a handful of female politicians sitting at the Cabinet table. The Senator boosted her public profile when she battled with Minister Roderic O’Gorman for the leadership of the Green Party. But she is still facing an uphill battle to get elected to the Dáil.

The Minister – who lives on a farm with her husband Mark, himself a Green Party councillor, and four children in County Offaly – studied Equine Science and Agriculture to boot. She was unimpressed with a recent debate among candidates in her constituency.

“It was all about, ‘How much money can I give the suckler cow owner, or how much money can I give a sheep farmer?’” she recalls. “You know, they’re bouncing figures between €300 and €450.

“And I said, ‘You’re putting the cart before the horse because you don’t know what you’re giving this money for. What are you expecting off these farmers if you provide them with this additional income support?’

“I think we all agreed the system isn’t working for many farmers. It’s certainly not delivering for the environment. Now, I don’t like to pull the woman card very often, but I did say, ‘Look, it is a bit of an irony here: I’m the only woman – and I’m the only one with enough balls to suggest an alternative, a different way of doing things’.

“I mean, I’m a farmer myself, so I can’t be thrown into the pit of, ‘Oh, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about’. I do know what I’m talking about. None of the rest have any vision, unfortunately.”

So what is Pippa Hackett’s vision for the next government if the Green Party gets back into power? A good question.

Now, read on…

Jason O’Toole: You must’ve been gutted, losing out on the leadership of the Green Party by just 72 votes.

I was. Sometimes, to come so close nearly makes it worse. But I don’t regret it. I was selling myself as that sort of green-green, and that’s very much how I will conduct this general election. I wish Roderic well. But I do think the Green Party is called the Green Party for a reason. We have to keep our environmental ambitions to the fore.

It seems almost misogynist that none of the three government parties –the Greens, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael – have ever had a female party leader.

Look, there will be female party leaders in the future. I think the leaders of all the parties are nearly 50% women: Ivana Bacik, Holly Cairns, Mary Lou. So, it’s definitely a change over the last 20 years. We’re moving in the right direction.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how do you rate Roderic O’Gorman as party leader?

From a Dublin perspective, he’s very clued-in, in relation to the issues, so probably a 7/10. But in terms of the rest of the country, and particularly in relation to bringing rural Ireland along, I’d be giving a much lower score – that’s why I ran for leadership! The Green movement is going nowhere without rural Ireland.

Minister O’Gorman was attacked on the campaign trail. Have you experienced hostility on the hustings?

Not at a personal level. A couple of years ago – we live in the middle of the countryside –somebody moved plant pots, emptied them out at the front of our gate, and sprayed our road front with herbicide. Our grass turned yellow. I don’t know what triggered that. As a government minister, we’ve all had to have security improved in our homes.

Isn’t it a mockery of our justice system that Gerry Hutch is now running for the Dáil?

He’s entitled to run. It’ll be interesting to see how he gets on. He’s going to get traction. There will be a protest vote there, that people will give their No.1 to Gerry Hutch. But do people really want someone like that representing them? I wouldn’t.

Do you rate Simon Harris as Taoiseach?

Look, I get on with him on a personal level. I think the energy is clear to see. The populist piece is a little bit harder to swallow.

Like what?

I’ll give one example. Simon Harris says, “I’m sick and tired of people talking down to farmers.” Which is having a go at the Green Party, essentially – though he doesn’t say the Green Party. The Green Party don’t talk down to farmers, but he’s landed that. And because he’s said it so often and repeated it so often, it’s filtered into the psyche now that [people think], “Oh, he must be talking about the Greens and the Greens talk down to farmers”. I don’t like that approach. It’s disingenuous. It’s Trump politics. It’s: tell a lie, repeat it and then people start to believe it. And look, he’s been effective at that.

Simon Harris. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Sounds like you don’t rate him as a Taoiseach.

Oh, God, you’re putting words in my mouth! He’s been an upbeat Taoiseach but I can’t say I like his campaigning in the general election.

Was Michael O’Leary right when he said there were too many teachers in the Dáil?

No. The big issue here is, why did Fine Gael choose a billionaire mouthpiece to launch their campaign? [O’Leary endorsed Minister for Enterprise Peter Burke in the Longford–Westmeath constituency]. I mean, they talk about the Greens being out of touch! How further out of touch could you get to ordinary people across this country than to have Michael O’Leary launch your campaign?

You’re not his biggest fan.

He’s Trumpian in his views. He has the fortunate capacity of being immune to every single challenge this country faces because of his sheer wealth and his denial of any issues, including the climate. In fact, teachers have a strong grasp of what’s happening in their communities. He was totally wrong. He’s not a person anyone should have used to launch their election campaign.

What’s your reaction to the election of Trump?

I’m worried in a global sense. I’m worried: what might the impact be? I’d be pretty worried if I was Ukraine.

It’s hard to understand.

The American people have chosen someone they think best represents them in their own challenges. Sometimes people vote very locally and don’t think about the big knock-on effects. I think a poll recently said 76% of Irish people would vote for Kamala Harris.

Is his election not a clear statement that a majority of American people don’t give a damn about climate change?

I think if they’ve been listening to Trump for the last eight years, they don’t think it’s a thing at all. Look, climate change isn’t high on their agenda.

Surely if they, as the richest country in the world, are not on board the rest of us might as well give up…

No, I don’t buy that. That’s like saying because human rights are crappy in some other country, we lay off it here. I think just saying we’ll just stop doing it because China, India or the US aren’t doing it, it’s just not an argument.

You heard Trump’s mantra – “Drill, baby, drill…” Is that not a recipe for disaster?

Absolutely. It’s unfortunate how the Americans propose to support renewable energy: “But it’s okay as long as it’s the oil companies investing in renewable energy, it doesn’t really matter if they’re drilling. Oh, aren’t they great, cause they’re investing in solar and wind, etc?” But his obsession with continuing to drill and extract fossil fuels is not going to serve their country. But it’ll serve him fine for four years.

Trump never thinks about the bigger picture…

You have to think of the long-term impact of what you do today. So look, it’s really concerning. He is essentially a climate denier. He’s rich enough, unfortunately, to be able to avoid all the consequences. But that’s not the case for billions of people across the planet.

So what should the Irish government do, in response to all this?

We’re small but we’re influential. We have to stand by what we believe. I think in this government, we have moved the dial in terms of how we’re dealing with emissions, and putting in place action plans. Now we have to showcase that to the Americans, that this is the way we are going, and this is the way Europe is going. “And if you guys want to still focus on drilling for more oil, then fine. But that’s going to have an impact on how the continents engage.” Europe wants to be a leader in climate action. America clearly doesn’t. So, there will be a clash at some stage.

Trump is clearly a philistine – but does the failure to convince Americans not amount to a failure of communication on the part of the Green movement?

I think that’s the challenge for the green movement. This is one of the reasons I ran for the leadership of the Green Party – making our policies relevant to people in their everyday lives and accepting that the utopia that some of us would love to see isn’t a reality. We have to work with where we are, and the communities we engage with. And we have to listen to them.

There’s a growing sense that there is a religious dimension to the way the Green Party imposes its view of the world on people – and if you don’t agree you’re a sinner.

I think people have a sense that the green movement is always talking down to people, telling them they live bad lives and they shouldn’t eat this food, and they shouldn’t fly planes and drive, etc, etc. I don’t believe we should be anything like that. I think people should live their own lives, and we have to then put in the policies and the money and whatever needs to be put in place to support people to change how they live their lives. So make things accessible, make them relevant. That’s what the green movement should be focusing on in the next number of years because that green wave has definitely gone out. It was there five years ago, it’s not there now.

The Green Party is in real danger in this election…

Yeah. The latest polls aren’t very healthy looking for us. But talking with my colleagues and their engagements on the doors, it paints a slightly different picture. I think the acceptance now, which probably wasn’t there maybe five or 10 years ago, is that we need to do something to improve our environment, to support our biodiversity, our water quality. I think there’s an acceptance now that we are in the midst of this crisis and we must deal with it. Now, it’s about the ‘how’ we deal with it. Can we turn it around before the election? We just have to keep working on it, keep listening to people.

It could be goodnight Vienna…

We’ve always had a base and I think the base has probably grown. The polls are going up and down. Over the last couple of years, we’ve been hovering around 4 to 5% – give or take. I don’t think we’ll have a complete wipeout. I really hope we don’t. You know, if the Greens aren’t in government, it doesn’t hide the problem. People can stick their heads in the sand because we’re not in government, but the problem just gets worse if we’re not there.

How many seats will you win?

I’ll start from the upper house first: the senator numbers will go down cause we don’t have the numbers in terms of the county councillors to get some in. So, I mean, we might have one or two senators. We’ve got 12 TDs at the moment – I think if we return eight we’d be doing quite well.

A drop of a third of TDs would be a total disaster for most parties.

I’d be pretty happy with eight. I mean, any more would be brilliant obviously. But it could be less. We have to be prepared for that. But the fight is still in us.

Will there be a leadership contest, if the party is massacred in the general election?

We are obligated by our constitution to have a leadership election after a general election, so it will happen. Remains to be seen if he will be challenged!

Independent Ireland seems to be obsessed with the Greens.

The Greens live rent-free in the minds of Independent Ireland candidates across the country. Their whole sort of direction seems to be just anti-green: anti-green agenda, anti-green thinking, anti-green movement, anti-Green Party. And yet I wouldn’t say there’s one person in the country who’s making a decision: “Do I vote for Independent Ireland or for the Green Party?” We’re in different Venn diagrams. We don’t overlap at all, yet they are threatened by that, you know?

Sinn Féin also seem to be in panic mode.

An older generation links them to the IRA atrocities, but the younger generation now sees Sinn Féin as some sort of cover-uppy, bullying party. It’s awful to be using words like paedophilia to be associated with a political party, but that’s where young people have a very big problem with them. And then their policies on immigration seem to be all over the place. And we still don’t really know where they stand on climate action.

Pippa Hackett. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

As a junior minister in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine do you fear a backlash from farmers in this election?

The Greens are always on the end of a backlash from farmers. You know, it’s okay to be a farmer and to be green. It’s okay to drive a car and to be green as well. You can do all of these things. We have farmer members of the Green Party across the country. Some of them might keep their heads down, might not want their neighbours and friends to know. But the people who get it understand why we have to transition to a different way of farming. They can see it. The Green Party is needed in rural Ireland, very much so.

You’re a Mayo woman who lives on a farm in Offaly – as a country woman, it must upset you that so many farmers hate and resent Green Party policies?

It’s easy to, because we represent change. People seem to be able to relate to it [the Green agenda], for example, with decarbonisation of energy and renewable energy. People get it. And there are investors there to invest in that. So if you look at the economy as a whole, energy seems to get very little pressure. Transport is a challenge because we have to get fewer cars on the road and use more rail and public transport – but people seem to get that too.

And farming?

When it comes to farming, we have to remove fossil fuels from agriculture. The main way you do that is by cutting back on artificial fertiliser. The electric tractors and lorries – that’ll come in good time because that will be investor-led. But this is a decision farmers have to make. Artificial fertiliser drives water quality issues; it drives mono species of grass, which aren’t good for the soil health – and so forth.

What about the people who say: “the Greens don’t understand rural Ireland?”

Yeah. “They don’t understand farmers. They’re trying to destroy farming.” The noise from people who oppose Green policies is very loud. And it’s the majority, unfortunately, within the agricultural sector. But I think we have made in-roads.

What have you achieved – for them?

With this government, farmers have had more opportunities to try out different things – and that’s because the Greens were in government. We’ve got grants to support farmers to plant multi-species swards, to plant red clover. I know lots of your readers won’t know what I’m talking about, but diversifying the crops they grow and the grasses they grow brings resilience – to drought, flooding and all of that. They’re the sort of system changes we’re talking about. We’re not saying here, “take all your cows off the field and plant carrots.” We are a food-producing nation. We’re always going to have farmers. But do it differently. That’s all we’re saying.

How?

I don’t want to blow my own trumpet, but as a minister I’ve transformed the organic sector in Ireland. We’ve trebled it. Now, 5% of farmers in Ireland are farming organically – up from 1.6%. I suppose that’s one of the fears: if the Greens aren’t in government, I could see those small bits of progress falling back, because the desire really isn’t there among any other parties to keep that element going.

Are you angry about what’s going on at the COP summit?

It’s very frustrating. The climate finance piece should be the easiest piece because it’s just bloody money. Rich countries have lots of money and it’s just about a decision saying, “We are willing to support those who cannot support themselves because of our actions over the last decades.”

Is it not a mockery to have it in Azerbaijan, with the President describing oil and gas as “a gift from god”?

I think, ultimately, if we are to get fossil fuels out of the system, we have to engage with countries that produce fossil fuels. Having the summits in their countries is a way of engaging them. So, while people might see it as a bit hypocritical, it’s important that we engage.

A lot of people are very upset about the limits being imposed on flights in and out of Dublin airport.

Again, I’m a realist. We are an island and I accept we’re going to have planes flying in and out of Ireland, but it’s about balance. I mean, with Shannon airport, you can drive in, park, and you’re on your plane in no time. Dublin Airport is congested. The thought of flying out of Dublin always fills me with fear. You know, how soon do you go and how long will you be there? We have to utilise other parts of Ireland. It can’t just be Dublin-centric, which it has been. It’s important that the next government looks at those aspects.

Can you put into words your reaction to the war on Gaza, being waged by the Israeli government?

It’s just ghastly. It’s getting worse and worse. We mustn’t be desensitised to what’s happening because it’s horrific. To give Ireland its due, we’ve gone head and shoulders above most countries in terms of calling it out, in terms of being one of the early movers to recognise Palestine [as a state].

Who is going to cover the environmental cost of what has been done by Israel?

You’ve got a shell of Gaza and the West Bank, whatever will be left. By all accounts, it’s just a pile of rubble. The world has to collectively come [together]. Maybe this needs to be debated in a COP forum. It’s not climate action, but it’s still destruction. We have to help rebuild Palestine for their people because at the moment they’ve nowhere to live. That’s a tragic situation.

Is social media not hugely to blame for the inability of science and reason to win what should be essentially straightforward arguments?

I think so. Definitely. Social media changes wherever you flick to. And it, unfortunately, works on our weakest elements as humans – that it feeds our desire, feeds our views, and massages our egos, that if we like something we’ve read, we get it reinforced on the next page. And then, before you know it, you could be down a rabbit hole of absolute lies, misinformation.

Isn’t social media the poison in the system that has enabled liars and crooks to spread disinformation, without any checks or restraints?

I think it has. I know we’re trying to tighten up on all sorts of elements around social media and regulation, what can be said and so forth. But it’s so quick. The access is instant. And you see how quickly trends become viral. I think that is a great fear. And that whole expression – a lie is halfway around the world while the truth is tying up its bootlaces – it’s true. Lies travel really quickly.

It’s worrying that oil companies – and other lunatics with more money than sense like Elon Musk – can put billions into promoting climate crisis denialism, with absolutely no accountability.

Yeah, it’s a huge problem. And while we have responsibilities at a domestic level, maybe for certain elements of what happens on social media, it doesn’t stop people from accessing other sites outside of their jurisdiction. It’s a very hard one to control, especially when you’ve got people like Elon Musk and there are billions and billions of dollars behind them.

Elon Musk. Photo: James Duncan Davidson

We know that Russia is maliciously spreading lies and disinformation through paid-for social media campaigns to undermine or destroy democracy. To combat that, should these companies not have to provide the regulator with a full list of where every cent in advertising comes from, and what it is for?

I suppose ideally, yes. I think we have to. Misinformation is a threat to us as a country. We’ve already seen how the Russians have sabotaged the HSE database. I think what you’re asking, yes, is the answer. I’m just not sure how you how you can enforce that or do that.

Social media companies use people’s data to pinpoint their greatest vulnerabilities, and then target them with messages that exploit those vulnerabilities – should this not be stopped right now?

I think it’s about educating the users. And when they do sign up to something or click on a site, I think if there’s a danger of that happening, then that has to be more apparent to somebody who’s using social media, that: “By the way, click here if you’re happy with this company to exploit what you’re using.” And I think that does need to be more transparent. People need to be more aware of those risks.

So what needs to be done, to take the power over democracies back from big social media and tech companies – and the plutocrats that run them?

It’s really difficult to come up with a sort of a one-size-fits-all for this. I know we’re trying to build on the protections of online safety and the media regulation act brought in by my colleague in government, Catherine Martin. But I think we have to be agile and flexible in updating the laws. Unfortunately, we’re always going to be chasing this. You know, something will happen and then we say, how do we fix that? I think that’s going to be the nature of it – that we’re reactive to something new. I don’t know if we can get ahead of it. And I don’t think we should be shutting it down and not letting people have access. So it’s that balance, isn’t it, between trying to get the fake stuff less available, but still allow people some freedoms?

Surely it’s as simple as this: there must be legislation which holds social media companies fully responsible and accountable for the spread of disinformation and lies?

Well, I suppose that’s what we’re trying to do. People think, oh, we’re shutting down freedom of speech. It’s not that, it’s far bigger than that.

Where do you stand on Minister O’Gorman’s stance that those under the age of 16 should be able to legally change their gender with their parents’ consent?

It’s a very sensitive issue. My own children are between 21 and 13. But when I think back on my parents’ generation, there were many 21-year-olds married with children. No offence to my son, but I couldn’t imagine him being married for maybe at least another 10 years! So I think a 16-year-old is a very young person. People do need a little bit more time to mature in their views. I wouldn’t be massively supportive of young people making that decision at that age. I think 16 is a bit too young, yeah.

Did you ever smoke marijuana?

I did at college. Yes, I did for a while.

Did you enjoy it?

I did. Yeah, probably too much. But look, it was short-lived and I haven’t done it for decades.

Did you ever try any harder drugs like cocaine?

Magic mushrooms was about as far as I went. Marijuana and magic mushrooms, but nothing harder than that.

What was the magic mushrooms experience like?

If I dare say it, my boyfriend at the time, my husband now, considered himself the expert in magic mushrooms. And we went out one night and I think he had 10 and he gave me like about five. He was regulating my mushroom intake. So, it didn’t really have much of an impact. But we did have a jolly good, laughing night. So, it must have had some impact.

Should marijuana be legalised?

I think it should. It’s always been a Green Party policy to legalise that and certainly to decriminalise drug use. We very much push that. The reason the whole Citizens Assembly on drugs took place was because it was a Green Party drive and a Green Party policy. I suppose if we’re in government again, we’d definitely like to see the implementation of the recommendations: the legalisation of marijuana and then just taking a health-based approach to drugs rather than a criminal approach.

On sex workers and their customers: should two consenting adults not be allowed to do what they want in the privacy of their own room?

I think they should. We want to protect particularly, I suppose, mainly women and girls, but whoever’s involved in it from being exploited. And we know that that goes on. So if you decriminalise it and regulate for it, I think you’re in a much safer environment. I’d be very supportive of that.

What’s your position on euthanasia?

We have to be open-minded about this. We should legislate for assisted dying in Ireland. But we have to be very careful that it’s very robust and it’s not going to be abused. And I think most people agree with that. Well, actually, most people might not agree with that, but that’s what I believe…

Are you religious?

I would probably describe myself more as spiritual. I do attend regularly a local Church of Ireland. My husband is a churchwarden. I like attending church. I like listening to the readings. I like to think deeply about them and how they relate to my life.

You don’t have to be religious to do that.

I do believe we’re fortunate to be on this fabulous planet and this wonderful island of Ireland. And I consider myself incredibly lucky to be a farmer and to be a custodian over our land. And I endeavour to make that better. I think the whole Mother Earth piece resonates a lot with me and nature. So I’m probably in some sort of Druid or a pagan approach to it all.

Do you believe in heaven and hell?

No. I think when we’re dead, that’s it. Your legacy lives on in what you’ve achieved while you’ve been here and through your genes if you’re lucky enough to have children or choose to.

You dress very stylishly. Are you into fashion?

I hate fast fashion. Hate it. You know, I think 95% of my clothes are from charity shops, second-hand stores. So whatever I’ll be wearing for the photographer [for this Hot Press interview], hopefully, will all be slow fashion.

What type of music are you into?

I have an eclectic mix on my Spotify account. I like things like Oasis, from my era. But I also like new stuff as well, because when you grow up with kids in the house – as I said, they’re 21 to 13, four of them – they listen to their music. And we all listen to music together, which is quite nice. I like a couple of Taylor Swift songs.

So you’re a closet Swiftie?

I wouldn’t call myself a Swiftie by any stretch of the imagination. But what’s nice as well is that they listen to my music. I hear them humming songs from the ’90s and the ’80s and even earlier. And the lot of us could happily listen to Alexa play The Beatles and we can sing along. It’s nice to have that blend. And I’ve forced them all to learn to play the piano because I learned to play the piano. And they’re all quite musical. So listen, music’s lovely.

You mentioned Oasis. Are you going to the Croke Park gig?

I couldn’t get tickets, couldn’t pull any strings. They were extortionately expensive in the end anyway. So I don’t think I was willing to fork out that much, even if I had got to the top of the queue. So, I’m a bit pissed off at that. But listen, I’ll survive.