It is fair to say that our recently appointed Minister for Drugs, the Fine Gael TD for Cork North Central, Colm Burke, has a very unusual relationship with music. Many years ago – out of the blue – the Cork-born Junior Minister started to randomly hear very loud music. No, it wasn’t someone sneakily playing Black Sabbath through a hidden transistor. It was all in his mind and was – whatever way you looked at it – the kind of thing that makes you think: am I going mad?

And there was more.

“There was an incident at home where I became kind of incoherent,” he continues. “My wife became concerned about it, so she discussed it with someone who had just done six months neurology. He advised I should get it checked out and I ended up being diagnosed with a tumour in the back of my brain stem.

“So, I had major surgery for that and then I went back to the consultant three months later to be told, after further CT scans and MRI scans, that I was back to square one. Surgery hadn’t worked.

“This was at a time when you didn’t have access to the internet,” he adds. “You didn’t have access to information the same way as you have now. It was a big challenge, because the presumption, when someone was diagnosed with a tumour back then, was: your days were numbered, kind of thing, you know? I ended up going to Sheffield in England for treatment.”

Nowadays, he listens to Christy Moore and fellow-Corkonian John Spillane. But heavy metal is not on the agenda!

“My problem about loud music now is that it’s one of the problems that I had back then,” he explains. “I could be talking to you and the next thing I’d start hearing this loud music. Or if I was driving. It would happen maybe once a week, and it was starting to get more frequent. But I was lucky that I was diagnosed, and that it was treated.”

Thankfully, the 67-year-old was able to bounce back to a full bill of health. He went on to become Lord Mayor of Cork in 2003, and an MEP in 2007. He was a Senator from 2011-2020, and was eventually elected to the Dáil, on his second try, in 2020.

It was viewed as a bit of a bombshell, nonetheless, when he was appointed as Minster for Public Health, Wellbeing and the National Drugs Strategy by the new Taoiseach, Simon Harris, back in April.

Activists were quick to ask: has he any track record in the area? Will he be progressive? What does he actually know about drugs?

We thought we’d find out, in what is the Minister’s first major print interview since he took up the post…

Jason O’Toole: There’s a very important debate in the US and Europe now about drugs – and an increasing recognition that the war on drugs has failed badly. What’s your response?

Minister Colm Burke: This morning, for instance, we were at a press conference for a report in relation to focusing on a health-led approach in dealing with drugs. We had one [now retired] district court judge in Cork, Olan Kelleher, and rather than applying a fine of €100 and the Probation Act if someone was up before him, he insisted on them paying €750 in the court poor box – and that money is used to professionally help people. And that has worked, in the sense that of out of the 189 people that have come under that programme, none of them have subsequently come to the attention of the Gardaí. So, it’s about a health-led approach.

So, in your view, should drugs be best treated as a criminal issue or a health issue?

We’re now working with the Gardaí. There are, I think, nine different initiatives in place of trying to assist people in going down the health route as regards dealing with their problem rather than down the criminal system.

Germany has begun to legalise drugs. Portugal has decriminalised them. The same is true in a dozen states across the US. Do you think they’re wrong or stupid?

I think some of the countries… for instance, I was speaking to someone from Canada recently, and I know that they decriminalised it – I know they’re now having second thoughts about it.

So decriminalisation is not on the agenda here?

I think we’re not talking about decriminalisation, what we’re talking about is doing a health-led approach in relation to drugs and getting the message out there. In the same way, like for instance, one of the sad parts about the tobacco industry: the chief medical officer in the US back in 1963, which is a long time ago, advised that tobacco and tobacco products were a danger to people’s lives and were a health risk [The US Surgeon General’s Report on smoking and health was published in 1964 – JOT]. Yet it took us 40 years to actually take decisive action in dealing with that issue. And we need to make sure we don’t to go down the road in the same way as the tobacco industry has – quite a lot of people die every year as a direct result of having smoked tobacco products.

Do you think marijuana should be legalised?

This issue is a matter that’s before the Oireachtas Committee. Until such time as they report, it’s not for me to say what should or should not be done. The Citizens Assembly has already given its report that’s being reviewed by the Oireachtas Committee, and the Oireachtas Committee is up and functioning. So once that’s produced, then it’s a case of the government considering what’s the next step to take.

There was a very strong feeling among members of the Citizens Assembly on drugs, that in terms of the experts brought in, it was weighed very strongly against the legalisation, or decriminalisation, of cannabis.

I think this is the issue that the committee are looking at, and they’re also having presentations done by the different departments: the Department of Health, Department of Justice, the Health Service.

So, you don’t want to give your personal views here?

I would leave it to that group of Oireachtas members to review what they feel is the best way forward to deal with this issue. And then it’s for the government to consider all of the reports, whether it’s from the Citizens Assembly, the Oireachtas Committee, the HSE, the Department of Justice, or the Department of Health. The government has to weigh up all of that and the Cabinet then have to come to a decision.

Wouldn’t it be far better for Ireland to do the same as other countries and to generate tax revenue from the purchase of drugs rather than leaving all that lovely cash in the hands of criminals?

But all I’m saying is, let’s see what the review shows up, right?

Do you not agree it’s completely wrong that someone smoking a bit of hash can be saddled with a criminal conviction?

Well, I don’t… I’m not a medical expert, but the advice I’m giving is that the use of any drug can be damaging to a person’s health. And it’s a matter then for the person themselves. If there’s a health-led approach, it’s not going to be compulsory, but it is going to be offered. And it has worked for people. And there are benefits for it. And I think that’s extremely important.

I’m getting the impression you’re against legalisation or decriminalisation. Can you tell me honestly what your problem is with that?

No, no, my view on this is that this is not for me as Minister to dictate what my policy is. This is a matter for the Oireachtas Committee to decide – and the final decision will be taken by the Cabinet as regards the best way forward. It’ll be a combination of a decision between the Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, and the Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee. The education department as well. So, there’ll be quite a number of departments coming to the conclusion about what is the best way forward for Ireland.

But it has been legalised in other countries.

And just because one country has done something doesn’t say it’s the best way for us. I suppose the immediate thing that we need to deal with is the number of people now requiring treatment and making sure there is adequate support and treatment available.

By not legalising it, aren’t you creating a market for the drug dealers who have shown no sign of going away – despite the best efforts of police forces around the world?

But no matter what you do, drug dealers will never go away. You can look at anywhere in Canada, in America, in the UK, anywhere at all, where drug dealers will never go away. And what happens is that, if someone starts off with a drug like cannabis and then they go on to stronger drugs, the dealers will be involved in that market, no matter what you do. The problem is that if someone gets hooked on a particular drug, the only way they can continue to fund it is by dealing. And, nine times out of ten, the big dealers are the people who don’t themselves use drugs, but they make sure all the people who are working for them are using the drugs.

You’re talking about drug debts here…

A lady was onto me, where it was over €30,000 paid out. The dealer was onto her son and gave him around €6,000 in value of items to deal, and the whole idea was to get him out to do the hard slog of selling, so the guys that are really supplying it will never get caught with it in their position.

Marijuana is not a gateway drug for the majority of users.

Well, I don’t know. I think, as I said, it’s up to the Oireachtas Committee to come back with a view as regards what’s the best way forward, and then for the various government departments to come to a decision.

There’s a new injection centre planned for Dublin. Do you support that as an approach? Absolutely.

The work has started on it. The building work will take about three to four months. Hopefully, we’ll have it finished by the end of November.

Why only hopefully?

The only problem is, when you just take on a building project where it involves renovating an existing building, you’ll always find something that you didn’t think was there. So, it may very well go into 2025.

It is needed asap.

But every effort has been made to have it finished by mid-November to early December 2024. One of the things that we’re trying to do in Cork now – I have a proposal in from Cork City Council and the HSE, plus some people involved in the whole drugs area – is to build a day centre to give support to people who are homeless or who have addiction problems.

Why a day centre?

A lot of people who are homeless do get accommodation at night, but then at nine o’clock in the morning they’re out on the street and we’re talking about putting in place a day centre for people like that.

Would you like to see injection centres rolled out across the country?

Well, we’re rolling it out in Dublin and we’re then going to see how that works – that’s going to be continually assessed over the following 18 months. And then once that’s fully done, [our plan] is to look at other centres. One of the suggestions being put forward to me, rather than a centre, was to provide a mobile unit for Cork.

How would that work?

So, it’s not in one location, it’s in a number of different locations, that people are aware of the time that it will be at that location. But I don’t think there’ll be any progress on that until we see the benefit in Dublin. In relation to the centre in Dublin, the people who will be attending this will be going to it, carrying illegal substances. So, we’ve had to get the Garda on board, we’ve had to get the DPP on board. They’re all on board.

What measures are being taken to combat drug-related gangs?

Well, I suppose it comes in under the Justice area and it’s really the Gardaí. I wouldn’t be, I suppose, up to date on what exactly the department are doing. But I know the Garda Response Unit is very proactive in dealing with it. But, I suppose, the big challenge in Ireland is the coastline is so vast that it’s impossible to scrutinise every bay and inlet where people can get drugs in. The other thing, of course, is that people can use all sorts of different mechanisms. As you know, there’s a case out of Kerry pending in relation to garden machinery, I think, that was being imported into Cork and being exported on again. Ireland seems to be used as a place where the initial connection is made and then sold on to other destinations.

Some people think the reintroduction of the death penalty for major drug dealers would be a good idea. What do you think?

I wouldn’t agree with the death penalty. I think it hasn’t worked in America. But again, I would presume if the Oireachtas Committee wants to consider it, and they come back with their recommendations, we’ll give it serious consideration. But I don’t think it’ll work. I don’t think it has worked anywhere. And it has certainly not worked in America. If you look at all gun crime, drug crime, all that in the States, it’s just gone so difficult now.

What do you think of tabloids giving names like Mr Flashy to members of criminal gangs? Is this not a form of glamorisation?

We go back over the years and there was a name put on people, to an extent. And now more than ever with social media, people are being glamorised. And I think we need to be very careful in that. And it can be attractive if, especially young people, seeing this guy is doing so well, [start thinking] “I want to get into the same scene.” It can give a very false impression. Look at the people involved in the drugs trade who end up in tragic circumstances. And that’s the sad part of it – where their families are dragged into the whole thing as well.

It must be of grave concern that the rank-and-file Gardaí have completely lost faith in Drew Harris. Should he resign?

That matter has been dealt with. It’s a Department of Justice issue, it doesn’t go in under my department. I think there’s been very good operations by the Gardaí in a whole range of areas. And remember, as well, the population of this country has increased by 40% in the last 20 years – crime hasn’t increased by 40%. So, someone must be doing a good job. And I think the general public out there are doing a good job, where they’re not prepared to put up with someone who’s involved in illegal activity, and people will report it. I think the general public play that huge part; whether it’s in the rural or urban areas, they’re very much aware of what’s going on around them.

Which is the biggest drug of concern in Ireland right now?

Well, how do you mean – the biggest drug? I mean, all drugs are of concern. I suppose the one where there are a lot of adverse effects is where someone comes along and they mix – it’s a different mix – and then try to sell it as a new item, and it’s actually [even more] dangerous to people’s health. That’s what I would be concerned about. But obviously, anyone who’s on heroin, it’s a very slow road to recovery from it.

Anything else?

A lot of the drugs that are available lead to other problems, like psychiatric issues in particular. And psychiatric services will say that people who are admitted, they’re admitted as a direct result of having used drugs. Say, for instance, any one of us, you know, could have schizophrenia, but it doesn’t show up. And there is evidence that, for instance, where people have taken drugs, schizophrenia suddenly appears, and it doesn’t go away, and then they have it and there’s no going back. It was there all the time, but the drug actually set off the process.

Illegal bootleg prescription drugs coming in from Asia and the US must be a serious concern. Recently, in Dublin, five individuals were rushed to hospital within 24 hours of digesting illegal prescription drugs – and two of them died.

Absolutely. I mean, anything which is coming in illegally, which is not being sold through the approved pharmacies, then obviously there’s always a danger. And I think anyone taking a drug like that is taking a risk, because you don’t know what are the components in it. We need to get a message out there that anything that’s not coming through proper channels is a risk and can endanger your health.

The painkiller Lyrica is a major concern – with suicides and ODs – on the streets of Belfast and Glasgow, where it’s nicknamed Bud. I’ve heard it’s starting to become a problem in Dublin too. Do you know much about it?

I’m sorry, I’ve heard of it, but I’m not aware of it. I’ve heard that people have adverse effects to it. But the question is, how are people getting it? I suppose one of the problems that we have here in Ireland, and it’s one of the problems I’ve been working on the last 10 years trying to fix, is to computerise our entire medical record system. If you have a drug that doesn’t require a prescription, you could go into 10 different pharmacies and get the same drug on the one day, because you don’t have to produce any identification.

There’s a different system in many EU countries…

If you adopt the Danish system, then if a pharmacy gives you a particular drug, it goes on your medical file. So your medical file is like having a bank account. For instance, if I’m in Denmark, the GP gives me a prescription, but he won’t give it to me, he’ll send it on to the pharmacy, he’ll put it on my file. So, I went to the pharmacy, I produced my card – they can then see what prescription had been given.

Are we trying to do that here?

It’s wrong that we still haven’t got the computerisation of medical records sorted. So, in fairness to the Minister, he has brought forward proposals and it is moving forward, but we need to do a lot of catching up in that whole area.

Have you ever smoked marijuana? No.

Never been tempted?

No, I’ve been too busy. I need to take time off to do that.

Well, you could have tried it when you were a student at university?

No, I was involved in youth work at the time. So, I was involved in a lot of stuff. So, you’ve never taken any type of illegal drugs? No, no. Have you ever got behind the wheel of a car after a few pints and driven home? No, no. I started off in politics very early and, I suppose, one of the things was, I saw people who came out the wrong side. You know, if you’re a public rep you were in a bar six nights a week, because there was political party meetings, there was community meetings. There was no community centres at that time, going back 25/30 years ago – so everything was held in the bar. And nine times out of 10, everyone had a drink after the meeting. And in a lot of cases, it was a lot more than one drink. And I’ve seen very good public representatives fall to one side because of the excess of drinking. So, I decided to keep away from it.

Do you drink at all?

I do. I drink from time to time, but not that often.

I interviewed the Green TD, Neasa Hourigan, recently for Hot Press. And here’s a quote from her: “There’s 160 TDs plus senators. Are we really saying that 160 people who have lived a life have not done multiple types of drugs? Like, that’s utterly unbelievable. It’s ridiculous lying when they say they haven’t done it.”

Yeah, but I mean, no matter what area you go to, whether you go to talk to a group of solicitors or barristers or doctors, nurses, care assistants – a certain percentage would have [tried it]. I’m sure you saw the recent figure there, where up to over 20% of people interviewed in a health research group, health research board, research showed over 20% have confirmed that they have used an illicit drug at some stage or other. So, if you’re saying that the Oireachtas is a representative group of people, you know, representing the entire population, you’re probable percentage in here is probably the same. I don’t see any reason why it would be any different.

How would you feel if one of your children told you they were dabbling in drugs?

I would be very concerned because of the fact that there is this issue where it can have health consequences. And I think it’s the worry of every parent now because it’s so freely available and you can go to any small village or any street in an urban area and you can get access to drugs.

Do you think the sex work industry should be legalised?

Well, we’ve already taken a decision on that. There was legislation making it illegal and imposing penalties and that’s the way it has remained. As you know, the whole area in relation to sex work is that there’s a lot of people who are in it because there are people who are allegedly looking after them or managing them, but it’s all about money at the end of the day. And so some of these people have come from jurisdictions outside of Ireland where they don’t have any freedom as regards making decisions if they wanted to walk away from the work in the morning: they would have extreme difficulty because of the people that control them. And I think that’s one of the sad parts about that whole industry.

But shouldn’t sex workers be entitled to unionise, pay taxes and enjoy protection, health and safety?

Well, again, that comes in under Justice. I mean, there was a decision taken by the Oireachtas to make it illegal. I haven’t seen a proposal recently for changing that, but that legislation is only in place for less than 10 years. So if you decided in the morning to review that, then I think you’d have to go through the whole process in the same way as in relation to the legalisation of drugs. You know, we set up a Citizens Assembly in relation to the drugs issue. Maybe it’s something that would be appropriate for the Oireachtas committee to give consideration to and give a report package…

What business is it of yours or anybody else’s if I want to pay someone to have sex in the privacy of my own room?

But there’s no one putting their payments through bank accounts. So it’s all cash, so there’s a big illegal market there as well. And there’s also the health issue then as well. You know, a lot of the people who are in that business do have health challenges and they need access to healthcare. But I suppose the big challenge is about who controls the business and that’s the issue.

Do you think euthanasia should be legalised?

We have done some work on that. I’m not up to date on it, but there is some work on it done. There’s a commission report published, and, obviously, it’s back in to government then at that stage. I don’t see it happening during this term [of government]. But I think if euthanasia is given consideration, there has to be a very strict process in place.

I know it’s slightly different now, but for instance, if you take the Fair Deals scheme, if I want to get someone to qualify for the Fair Deals scheme under the HSE system, two doctors have to sign off that the person requires nursing home care. Likewise, in relation to euthanasia, it would have to be a very strict criteria to make sure that the system doesn’t become abused.

Would you vote in favour of it?

I’d have to see the final proposal before I make a decision on that.

During the 2020 general election, windows in your constituency office were smashed. Who do you think did it?

I think, in fairness, across the road from my office there’s a church, but there’s a wall around the church with these red bricks, and I’d say there was a few bricks loose, and I’d say there’s a few young lads just messing. I don’t think there was anything major in it. At the time, I got a fright from it, alright…

You were recently refused communion by a priest who informed you: “You have been excommunicated” from the Catholic church – because you voted to Repeal the 8th Amendment.

In July, I was refused Holy Communion and was advised by the priest in question, Father Burke, “You have been excommunicated.” This incident occurred at the funeral Mass of a person who I knew for over 35 years – a longstanding member of Fine Gael. What is of importance is that there was a family grieving, including his sister, nephews, nieces, relatives and friends.

How did it become a public issue?

The mass was livestreamed and the full ceremony, including the incident, was put up on YouTube. I was not aware of the video until I was contacted by a journalist after 6pm on the Saturday evening, which was 30 hours later. Once the story was put up online by The Irish Times on Saturday evening, journalists then became aware that they could access the video and were able to download photographs from the video for publication.

Had something like this happened before?

There was only one previous incident where I was refused Communion by Father Gabriel Burke. This was in early 2022, at a time when people were wearing masks in church. I understood that, on that occasion, I was refused Communion because I was wearing a mask, but I was not contacted by Father Burke subsequently to clarify this. Since the recent incident occurred a number of priests and people in the religious community have been in contact with me, and conveyed their shock and upset as to the manner in which I was treated. This is in addition to many people in the lay community.

All this, while the Church is dying on its feet…

I think the sad part about the Church is that it hasn’t engaged with the laity as much as what it should in order for it to survive in the way it did previously. So, like, there is challenges there now for the Church.

Are you religious?

I am religious. I suppose I have a firm belief in helping others. And I think one of the problems that has happened in religion is because it’s all has been very much about black and white – “You can’t do this, you can’t do that” – and it’s all about rules and regulations. But the only rule that I have in religion is about helping others. And I suppose that’s my view on it. Bernard Allen TD of my constituency died recently. He’d been a TD for 30 years, but I did an oration at his graveside. I suppose my big issue is about, and I think the whole Christian ethos is about, helping others. And I suppose my job is, and it’s like someone who has a drug addiction problem, trying to give help and advice. And that’s basically what I think is what I’d like to do.

So, do you believe in heaven and hell?

I know we were all taught in school that there was heaven and hell. I think there has to be an afterlife. It’s – how did the world get created? And that’s the interesting theory. How did we develop in such a way? And the question is: where does it all start from and where does it all finish? None of us have the answers to that.

So in your imagination is God a man?

I don’t think so.

But if God isn’t a man, how did he impregnate Mary?

Well, but you see, the whole issue of religion and Christianity is about someone who had a view about how we should all work together to help one another, because then you have a better society.